Reactions to the Honorable Mention List, Part 2

[cubbymark]

 

 

Is it possible Stevens was one of the first big bumping, fast moving guys, and that's what made him so adored, since no one else was doing that at the time? Based on the way people describe him, he always sounded like the inspiration for the faster-paced style of the next generation of guys (which of course later became even faster). I picture him more as the Shawn Michaels of his era based on descriptions since the exaggerated bumping and movement is usually described as his calling card.

We might have loved him for an ability to be really, really irritating and draw heat while being showy, but there's not really any evidence of that in his work. You can't even see the hints (and sometimes, far more hints) that you do in a guy that's obviously past his prime like Mick McManus.

 

Actually, here's a good question. Is there any wrestler that anyone put in their top 50 but that we have footage of as an older man that doesn't at least show more signs of greatness than what we can see from Stevens (including Flair, who despite my critiques, still DOES).

The first names that comes to mind that meets your criteria is Nick Bockwinkel. At 50 plus he was having outstanding matches with Hennig.

[victory]

Is it possible Stevens was one of the first big bumping, fast moving guys, and that's what made him so adored, since no one else was doing that at the time? Based on the way people describe him, he always sounded like the inspiration for the faster-paced style of the next generation of guys (which of course later became even faster). I picture him more as the Shawn Michaels of his era based on descriptions since the exaggerated bumping and movement is usually described as his calling card.

I think that sounds like a fair assessment of him based on how his peers describe him. If it wasn't for the last of footage I could see myself at least considering him.

[Matt D]

I had Stevens at #39. I've seen less than 10 of his matches but in those few matches you can tell he's special.

I'd love to see you write up some of those ten matches in the Microscope. I'd be really curious to see you pinpoint those elements. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'd just like to understand. Stevens is a hell of a myth and I'd like to be able to believe some of it.

 

 

 

Is it possible Stevens was one of the first big bumping, fast moving guys, and that's what made him so adored, since no one else was doing that at the time? Based on the way people describe him, he always sounded like the inspiration for the faster-paced style of the next generation of guys (which of course later became even faster). I picture him more as the Shawn Michaels of his era based on descriptions since the exaggerated bumping and movement is usually described as his calling card.

We might have loved him for an ability to be really, really irritating and draw heat while being showy, but there's not really any evidence of that in his work. You can't even see the hints (and sometimes, far more hints) that you do in a guy that's obviously past his prime like Mick McManus.

 

Actually, here's a good question. Is there any wrestler that anyone put in their top 50 but that we have footage of as an older man that doesn't at least show more signs of greatness than what we can see from Stevens (including Flair, who despite my critiques, still DOES).

The first names that comes to mind that meets your criteria is Nick Bockwinkel. At 50 plus he was having outstanding matches with Hennig.

 

 

Sorry, I worded that poorly. I meant if there was anyone in someone's 50s who DIDN'T show far, far more signs of greatness than we see from what Stevens we have, even when those people were old.

[Jimmy Redman]

Question for Jimmy, what was cuter Kota or the dog?

 

...Kota.

 

I'd say Seth has a much better title run

 

This is a horrible, horrible lie.

 

If I went just a little higher on Condrey or if Stacey went just a little lower on Orton they would have been flipped.

 

[Grimmas]

Another on my team has fallen. Jay did pretty well though.

[jpchicago23]

Damn it sucks to see Jay go as he is one of my personal favorites and made my list. He did better than I thought though

[KrisZ]

Adams, Invader, & CIMA gone for me now so that's 7

[cad]

 

 

I can't imagine a wrestling fan who would agree with all the placements.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? The top 100's gonna be like that too, with Lawler, Tanahashi and I'm guessing at least one of Undertaker/Hogan. Either you sort it out beforehand so that the only people voting are those with similar opinions, or you end up with a final list that's all over the place.

 

If the top 100 didn't have Lawler then it would be a pretty shitty top 100.

 

My point was that I don't expect a lot of lists to have three or all four of those guys but all of them finishing in the top hundred wouldn't surprise me. I don't envision a lot of overlap between fans of each of those guys. The top 100 probably isn't going to resemble any one person's list.

[ohtani's jacket]

Strongly disagree that Kudo is better than all but a few of the women who have dropped.

[Dylan Waco]

I like how well Cima did and would have been fine with both him and Masaaki Mochizuki making the top 100 even though I didn't really consider either.

 

Jay Briscoe did better than I would have expected him to to be honest. Underrated guy in a lot of ways. Same with Mark. They are HIGH on my tag team list and honestly if I could do it again I'd have them even higher.

 

If I'm not mistaken the high voter for Stevens is a guy who saw him live.

[Cap]

Jay Briscoe making the top 200 makes me happy. He is such an underappreciated guy. He is good in tags and singles. He can wrestle, brawl, fly, whatever you need. He has always been a personal favorite. To echo Dylan, the Briscoes are both incredibly underrated (in my mind at least) and they are a top tier tag team. Very few teams in the modern era have their longevity and have produced quality matches virtually year in and year out with such a variety of teams in a number of countries and contexts. There are a few tag teams I would list above them, but I am not sure there is one I personally like more.

[Manatee]

63. Mil Mascaras (244)

78. Takeshi Morishima (318)

94. One Man Gang (334)

96. Super Dragon (228)
97. Abdullah the Butcher (234)
98. Masahiro Chono (223)
99. Super Porky (227)

Those are my fallen soldiers so far. I cannot believe some of the guys in my bottom 25 haven't come off the board yet. If Brody's name isn't called soon I fear there may be a riot.

[Matt D]

I can't even begin to imagine a world where Brody is better than Super Porky.

[Childs]

God I forgot about Brody. That's dispiriting.

[Eegah]

Yeah, Brody not showing up yet is very discouraging. People continue to buy into whatever canon that has been written I guess. If you watch 10 Brody matches and judge it youll see he sucked.

[TheU_2001]

I ranked Brody, some may think high, but in my bottom 50. I e I just now remembered, yet freaking forgot when compiling my list, but it sounds like others didn't forget him, was Atlantis. I didn't watch as much Lucha as I would've liked, but when I watched Atlantis, he was pretty good.

[joeg]

 

I had Stevens at #39. I've seen less than 10 of his matches but in those few matches you can tell he's special.

I'd love to see you write up some of those ten matches in the Microscope. I'd be really curious to see you pinpoint those elements. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'd just like to understand. Stevens is a hell of a myth and I'd like to be able to believe some of it.

 

 

 

39 might be a little high considering the people I have him in front of. The thing that stood out the most was how much heat he drew. And I'm a fan of heels who draw insane amounts of heat (I also had Art Barr very high). For example, the "twin magic" spot of the Bellas, he and Patterson would do it because they looked so much alike. It drew that white heat. That some fan is going to jump into the ring and stab a motherfucker heat. And he drew heat with how he worked, not his talking. I'm talking Freebird heat. I also loved how he bumped. He's pinballing around in an era when top guys would work a hold for an extended period of time. His gaga is awesome too, like Micheal Hayes, Jake Roberts awesome.

[Matt D]

And you see this in what we have of him on tape, a bit of WWF heel stuff in, what, 82-83, the just snippets of 70s AWA, with maybe 1-2 full tags with Bockwinkel and the one with Patterson from 78 where I don't think i recognize what you're talking about, something like that, him teaming with Bock again in the 80s AWA for a bit, and then most of the rest is babyface stuff. Is there a match in particular that stands out?

 

If you're going off of things you saw live, obviously, there's not a lot we can do there but to take your word for it and curse the fact that we're not lucky enough to be able to see it ourselves, but I really haven't seen any sign of what you're saying on tape, not even the ghost of it.

[Cap]

Who will land higher... Brody or HHH? The answer might say a good deal about the soul of this whole thing.

[Manatee]

Yeah, Brody not showing up yet is very discouraging. People continue to buy into whatever canon that has been written I guess. If you watch 10 Brody matches and judge it youll see he sucked.

My experience was the opposite. I had only ever seen a handful of Brody matches before this project and I remembered him being inoffensive but then I kept hearing all the pwo-ptbn hosts talk about him like he was the worst. I decided to spend some time on him to see if I agreed with those guys and I ended up watching something like 30-40 of his matches. I liked him quite a bit and ranked him in my bottom 25.

[Eegah]

 

 

Yeah, Brody not showing up yet is very discouraging. People continue to buy into whatever canon that has been written I guess. If you watch 10 Brody matches and judge it youll see he sucked.

My experience was the opposite. I had only ever seen a handful of Brody matches before this project and I remembered him being inoffensive but then I kept hearing all the pwo-ptbn hosts talk about him like he was the worst. I decided to spend some time on him to see if I agreed with those guys and I ended up watching something like 30-40 of his matches. I liked him quite a bit and ranked him in my bottom 25.

Its definitely your right to do so and I hate speaking in absolutes but when it comes to Brody I dont think he has anything going for him besides a cool look. Ive thought that before I got on the internet so its not based on the backlash there. I just think hes an irreedamble wrestler

[Jimmy Redman]

Who will land higher... Brody or HHH? The answer might say a good deal about the soul of this whole thing.

The way Grim is going on and on about #182 it must be Hunter. So we'll see soon enough.

[joeg]

Just stuff on tape... There is a tag in 77 or 78 with Patterson against Strongbow and Robinson I want to say. Best Strongbow match I ever remember seeing. I don't really keep track of matches that I watch the way some people do. So stuff on tape from AWA and snippets of his stuff on tape from other places in the 70s.

 

There two other guys I have on my list based on so few matches- Buddy Rogers at 22 and Wahoo at 36. I've defended my placement of guys like that where there is very limited footage by quoting Jerry West. The first time he saw Kobe work out 15 minutes into the workout he stopped the workout and said "I've seen enough" and walked out of the gym. I mean how many Flair or Funk or Hansen or Misawa matches would you need to see to decide they are a top 10 guy? 1? 2? 3? So it didn't take me many matches to come to the conclusion that Stevens was a top 50 guy.

[Cap]

Brody can be "fun" in the right brawling setting, but even in that setting he is - to me - mediocre at best. I can imagine if you came in hearing he sucked that he would seem just better.

[joeg]

Confession to make. I have Brody, CM Punk and Okada as my vanity picks at 98, 99, and 100. Don't ask me to justify any of them with anything other than "well I like that guy"