Reactions to the List: 25-11

[goc]

 

Or maybe you're just being really overly fucking defensive and I just said it would be an interesting list to see.

Sorry it's not going to happen.

 

What do I know, I'm just a guy who supposedly edits people's quotes.

[MoS]

If the face of my country in pro wrestling is compared sincerely to Akira Taue, one of the best ever, I feel I have achieved nirvana and will die a happy man.

[KrisZ]

Okay there is a ton of fucking stupidity in these threads lately which is why I've stayed out of them but two things.

 

1) Finally I was the top vote for someone and it was the greatest Japanese born wrestler ever in Tatsumi Fujinami

 

2) Like Dylan said earlier......the only list that really matters to me in the end is my own list.......

[Loss]

Or maybe you're just being really overly fucking defensive and I just thought it would be an interesting question to ask.

[ragemaster]

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'.

 

Um...what?

 

 

GWE equivalent of Vince taking wrestling from smoke-filled venues to what it is today.

 

 

My thought process was:

 

"How could anybody have ever seen even a handful of Japanese Main Events and not seen a match with Kobashi?"

 

Unless Kobashi is still too stoic with not enough intensity and facial expressions. That is one of the main knocks against him.

[GOTNW]

 

 

Bret is better than Takada

If Bret Hart forms a promotion with no TV in 1991 he's lucky if he draws half the numbers my local backyard/indie fed does ("my", I don't have anything to do with it). What a mark. Bet his nudes wouldn't look half as good as well.

 

 

Takada nudes? Girl, don't be playin' ...

 

They exist and are very real. You can come across a lot of strange shit looking for GIFs on tumblr. Anyway I just checked and they've been deleted in the mean time. Folks can browse the japanese deep web on their own volition.

[goc]

Or maybe you're just being really overly fucking defensive and I just thought it would be an interesting question to ask.

Bullshit.

[Gregor]

The only Bret matches from his peak that I found overrated were the 1997 match with Sid (Bret did too much slugging and not enough treating Sid like a monster for me) and the Survivor Series '96 match. I will never understand the greatest-of-all-time praise that one gets. There's that spot where Vince shouts, "They're going underneath the table!" like it's the craziest thing that he's ever seen, when really it's just two guys rolling around punching each other and they happened to be near a table. Then there's the classic spot where Bret whips Austin to the ropes, but Austin reverses the whip, but then Bret reverses the whip again, and it's one of the bigger moments in the match. There's the technical stuff that isn't particularly brilliant technically. Maybe I'm just annoyed that anyone could rate it above Mind Games for 1996 WWF MOTY, but the truly great matches don't have that many flat moments. The Final Four match doesn't get praised much around here.

 

I had my gripe about the list last week, but at the end it's going to have Eaton, Anderson, Rhodes, and Regal very high; a smattering of names that don't get talked about much on most wrestling sites; and a top-30 ranking for John Cena, above Shawn Michaels. It's not a perfect encapsulation of this site, but it's decent, and it's certainly different from what you'd get with this type of poll in other places.

[The Thread Killer]

No superdelegates here. Direct democracy all the way.

 

I'm not advocating democracy. I'm fine with you and Will turning PWO into a brutal dictatorship.

 

I, for one, would welcome our new overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a loyal, long time member here, I could be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.

[WingedEagle]

 

Beast mentioned it, but who else could flip the switch between assassin-like intensity and comedic stooging that seamlessly from moment to moment, much less match to match?

Buddy Rose

 

 

Good call. But I'll still give Arn the nod.

[goodhelmet]

 

 

Beast mentioned it, but who else could flip the switch between assassin-like intensity and comedic stooging that seamlessly from moment to moment, much less match to match?

Buddy Rose

 

 

Good call. But I'll still give Arn the nod.

 

 

William Regal is another one.

[WingedEagle]

I'd like the Savage as #1 people to explain themselves. For all the focus on Bret, that's pretty nutty in itself, is it not?

 

Sheer madness. What I love about Savage is how he's not someone you'd ever call fast, but is just so damn sudden. The way he'd sling himself over the ropes to the floor, or up to the top turnbuckle. Great 10 yard dash, but horrible 40 yard time. The problem for me when watching him is that in between all of that, and the character work, was downtime. Lots and lots of aimless downtime. Almost like Bad Randy Orton but with a personality. The moments and matches were there, but not a GWE case.

[fxnj]

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

 

Beast mentioned it, but who else could flip the switch between assassin-like intensity and comedic stooging that seamlessly from moment to moment, much less match to match?

Buddy Rose

 

 

Good call. But I'll still give Arn the nod.

 

 

William Regal is another one.

 

 

Regal!! He loses points here though because he'd literally get me laughing with his facials and sometimes make it difficult to flip out of that mode. Just too strong a comedian.

[WingedEagle]

[Jimmy Redman]

 

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

 

Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match.

 

Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

 

Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match.

 

Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit.

 

 

I wouldn't say Taue gets no credit, but I would say that it takes time to appreciate how good he is. With fans like ragemaster, maybe he doesn't appreciate all the differences between the Mainstream American and King's Road Style, or more likely - perhaps he has not seen all of Taue's body of work. If you don't care for a guy's performance in a Tag Match, you're not likely to seek out his work in a singles match, and in Taue's case, you probably should.

 

When I first saw a match featuring "The Four Pillars of Heaven" at first look I thought Kobashi was the biggest star, simply because I was used to watching North American wrestling and Kobashi's style was more what I was used to, with the dramatic behavior. Secondly I was impressed with Kawada, who to me exuded bad-assery. Then Misawa, I saw that he had the skills (and then some) but at first I was taken aback by his stoicism at times. And originally yes, I didn't "get" Taue at all, I thought he was the weak link and wasn't ass good as the other three guys.

 

Now, I rate the four totally different.

 

In my opinion the problem is that a lot of fans read the names Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Taue and just look up one of their Tag Matches on YouTube, watch it, and then make snap judgements. That was the mistake I made - although I didn't use YouTube, I did just kind of jump into the King's Road stuff. It wasn't until later I understood that going straight to watching the Tag Final on 12/06/96 was kind of like watching only the scene in the Italian Restaurant where Michael shoots everybody, but then claiming you watched The Godfather and don't see the big deal. Yeah, you saw a vital part, but not the whole picture.

 

I honestly think new fans need to start with the match where Misawa unmasked and moved forward using this list as a guideline, get into the awesome Jumbo and Company vs. Misawa and Company Tag Team matches and Six Man matches (during many of which, Taue was rocking his super-cool fro.) If they then work their way up into the eventual split of Misawa and Kawada and formation of The Holy Demon Army, by the time they get to some of Taue's "peak" performances in 1995, they can see a fuller picture of the important role he played in 90's AJPW.

 

And that's not even getting into some of the underrated stuff he ended up doing in NOAH.

 

Now having said all that, if you look at all the work Taue did through the 90's in AJPW and you still end up comparing him to The Great Khali? Then I submit you have the brain damage brought on by taking the marijuana pills.

[Timbo Slice]

One thing I realize on the list is that the numbers always skewed towards number of ballots more than placement. Savage is really the first guy with both. Anderson ranked highly mainly by being on 94% of the ballots.

[Matt D]

I'm very happy about Arn's placement. It was about ballots but also, to some degree, about average. I think he's someone that almost everyone saw as great and while he does have great matches, and even a few great singles ones, the broad weight of his case is on a different sort of consistency, one that is special and unique. People are free to disagree, but I think he represents a sort of specialness that expresses itself in every moment, tiny stars lighting up the night sky and adding a color and beauty all their own instead of giant suns turning night into day. Greatness comes in many forms and he's the absolute pinnacle of a certain sort of it. It's nice to see how much people value what he represents.

[Jimmy Redman]

Another thing I wanted to say, after a lot of negativity about the list has surfaced again.

 

At this point I am a pretty regular board member. I have actively participated in the entire GWE project. I have watched a bunch of matches for it, posted in threads, been involved in discussions, and have now recorded over 12 hours and counting of podcast discussion of my ballot.

 

I have explored many different styles I was heretofore unfamiliar with, wrestling from Japan, from Mexico, from Britain, from America, from decades past. I've connected with styles I never thought I would ever "get" like lucha, joshi, shootstyle, and have an appreciation for so many more wrestlers from so many corners of wrestling than before, than I ever thought possible.

 

...and Negro Casas was still my highest ranked luchador at #22.

 

I'm not saying this to put myself over, the point I'm trying to make is that you can do all the due diligence in the world and still not have Negro Casas in your top 10 or whatever. It's not always about "oh they must not have watched/considered lucha". I watched it, I considered it. And that's where he ended up for me. I rated 21 other guys higher, including dreaded mainstream US wrestlers.

 

It's not that the lack of lucha voters doesn't play a factor. Of course it does. But there's a certain unpleasant sense of entitlement and even arrogance that goes along with the idea that "if only they actually watched the stuff they'd realise that he obviously belongs exactly where I think he belongs", as well as people getting truly hysterical with the idea that the list is bullshit and more voters were a mistake because X non-mainstream American guy is "too low" and X mainstream American guy is "too high". It's kind of insulting to feel the insinuation that you put all that effort into your ballot and still your vote is "wrong". As CapitalT said, imagine how a newbie poster or a lurker feels seeing that kind of attitude.

 

I don't think GOTNW was really being malicious in asking for a "PWO-only" list, I'm sure a lot of people would be curious as to what it looks like, but still it creates an uncomfortable notion that we need to cull a certain amount of voters who vote for unfashionable choices until we can get to a "correct" list that falls in line with your own ideas. You're never going to get there. I'm a PWO regular and I voted Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin much higher than any luchadors. Some PWO regulars didn't vote for any lucha. Some didn't vote for any Japanese guys or Flair! You'll never get to a perfect consensus list until you whittle it down to a sample size of one.

 

Which all gets us back to the fact that your own list and your own journey is far more important than the order of the final list. It's a cliche at this point, but no less true for that. The fact that I didn't have any luchadors in my Top 20 doesn't reflect my personal experience with lucha during this project at all.

 

If I submitted in 2014 I would have had exactly ZERO luchadors on my ballot. None. And when I actually submitted, I had nine. It is only because of and through this project that I finally "got" lucha as much as I do now, because it gave me the impetus to persevere with watching it and watching it until I finally started to see what I was watching and connect with it. I started to see the greatness in guys like Santo or Casas, and I ranked them in my top 25 above a LOT of guys that work a better and more familiar style to me. I realised someone like Fuerza is right up my alley and he's a new favourite wrestler of mine. I discovered how much I like certain things like masked tecnicos flying through the air, or trios matches filled with bumping and stooging. And I discovered that some things about lucha STILL don't connect with me, like brawls or maestros matches or overly-co operative matwork. I have an understanding and appreciation of lucha that I never thought I would reach.

 

Every single lucha placement on my list is a huge compliment and achievement for that guy. Someone looking at my ballot from the outside and thinking "no luchadors in the top 20?" or "How can Satanico be as low as #72??" and dismissing my ballot as wrong or ill-informed completely misses all of that. That's why the journey is more important than the destination.

[Cap]

 

 

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

 

Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match.

 

Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit.

 

I would go as far as to saying that in some ways he is my favorite in some of the higher profile tag matches. To echo Thread Killer, it took me a minute to get into Taue, or more appropriately, to "get" Taue. He is my go to case study in needing to understand the psychology of a wrestling context to really understand what is happening. His '95 Champions Carinval final with Misawa is amazing. I also love love love his match with Kobashi for the GHC title, but then again I am a sucker for Kobashi's deathwish title run.

 

Taue was fantastic and nuancing his role from match to match, series to series, and run to run. I haven't had the opportunity to go back and watch a ton in order, but I have watched stretches in order and I just love what he brings to a match, particularly with his timing and how expressive he can be with his movements. Once I got that his offense and the way he sold started to shine a lot more too.

[Ricky Jackson]

Thank you Stacey

[soup23]

Another response:

 

Wow, Taker getting hated on, with the premise that he didn't draw the most money therefore he wasn't the best? Hogan and Warrior were massive draws and they weren't very good wrestlers.

Fuckin' Arn Anderson is a top wrassler and surely didn't draw that much outside of the Horsemen, and only if Flair was booked.

[elliott]

Every single lucha placement on my list is a huge compliment and achievement for that guy. Someone looking at my ballot from the outside and thinking "no luchadors in the top 20?" or "How can Satanico be as low as #72??" and dismissing my ballot as wrong or ill-informed completely misses all of that. That's why the journey is more important than the destination.

 

Hey I'm just glad he made it to 72 on your ballot!

 

Great post