Reactions to the List: 25-11

[Loss]

The journey described at the start was any way you want it, that's the way you need it, any way you want it.

[WingedEagle]

Not familiar with cobcebsys so can't comment on that. No reason to use such language. A point was raised that the actual, comprehensive list might reflect a consensus that does not reflect those who are regularly involved at PWO. That's possible. It might also not be accurate. But it doesn't suggest that such a lit would necessarily reflect merely a few people. Its a thought. You don't have to lose your cool over people having alternative ideas or suggestions or hypotheticals.

[Grimmas]

"It's about the journey, not how many people voted" works both ways, you know.

No. People were waiting and not going to participate because assholes were shitting on their journey. Welcoming everybody put more people on the journey. Do you think Buddy would be watched by this many people if the process was closed?

[goodhelmet]

Then we touched.. .then we sang!!!!!

[DR Ackermann]

Arn Anderson has officially become overrated. He's still better than Bret Hart, though.

[GOTNW]

 

No. People were waiting and not going to participate because assholes were shitting on their journey.

Who what when where.

[dawho5]

Here's the thing guys. There were over 150 ballots this time. And as much as it is being bemoaned that not everyone "did their homework," which is probably true, it was never required on the ballot that you watched a bunch of matches featuring everybody. So if the general thought here is that the list is too mainstream....if you get three times the amount of ballots from a lot of sources that's what you are going to get.

 

As jdw has said before we are a niche of a niche of a niche. In this particular corner of the internet the idea that footage has to be watched before judgements can be made. Can that be said for wherever a good third of these votes if not more came from? So I think a few things that have been mentioned earlier on in the reactions and forgotten should be repeated.

 

1. Your list is going to be the definitive list in your mind. You aren't going to agree with where your favorites fall if they aren't very well-known to a large percentage of fans. The more people who vote, the more true this statement is. So if you want the "we are the smart guys" poll, you're gonna have to find a host who isn't Grimmas.

 

2. If you want to look at the list a different way, look at the placements within each style. Who are the top guys in WoS? NJPW 90s? Lucha? Women in Joshi? And it goes on. This will give you a relative idea of who the people who watched these styles voted for.

 

And I'll repeat myself for good measure. There is a bias towards U.S. workers. There are also 100 more ballots than last time. From 100 people who may or may not have decided to dive into lucha, WoS, shootstyle, BatBat, whatever it may be. I can gaurantee you that the more ballots you get in something like this, the more focused on U.S. workers it's going to be. So look for cases like Casas where he got a very high average among his voters as your positives. And if you really want to see a list where everything is "fair" to your guys, guess what. You have to watch everything else. Everything. And be fair in judging it. And not let your personal biases tell you that your guy at the beginning is still the guy despite everything you've seen. You would have to objectively come to this conclusion by watching enough of every nominee. And I'm not completely disagreeing with the complaints about Buddy Rose or Casas or Hash. They deserve to be higher. But the reality of this kind of deal is going to dictate that they place in a disappointing spot. Unless you go all "elitist" with your process and demand a rigorous process from every voter.

[Jmare007]

#23 for Hash is fine but I still wanted him higher dammit!

 

Holy shit at Casas at #22. Legit shocked by this. Although there was a limit in how many ballots he could make (as not every voter considered lucha), I thought he would average like 15 or even 10 in votes. I'm one of those people that really struggles with that style (specially with that distracting, atrociously bad commentary) but Casas was able to make me engage in his matches like few others. Bummer.

[goodhelmet]

OK, admin step in time...

 

I understand people's frustrations with how people are dropping like flies. However, at no point, will this project or any project promoted at PWO be shut off to the general wrestling public. I understand that many people here put a lot of time in this project. However, we are hoping to attract more posters, not push people away. As somebody who has participated in polls and projects for years (and a huge Memphis fan), allowing people to participate is a positive thing. Some people don't want to engage in debates so they don't post. Others don't want to get ganged up on (and that absolutely happens here). Others have felt ignored when they made points that fall on deaf ears. Something I have heard countless times (and even in these threads) is that they are overwhelmed by the knowledge of some regular posters. I tried to demonstrate with my recent string of podcasts that the experiences and personal connections shape people's lists. I want to hear more of these voices... not discourage them from participating in future projects.

[Grimmas]

To be clear, no elitist lists will be created. I will do some variations, but no pwo superior list. If you don't like that, well, sorry.

[GOTNW]

 

 

No. People were waiting and not going to participate because assholes were shitting on their journey.

Who what when where.

 

Still waiting for an answer here.

[WingedEagle]

Nice edit, Ron Burgandy.

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

 

No. People were waiting and not going to participate because assholes were shitting on their journey.

Who what when where.

Still waiting for an answer here.

If you think I'll release you PM'S, you are nuts.

[GOTNW]

I have no idea what you're talking about. If people commented on stuff and then someone PMed them about how their opinions suck and then they PMd you how their feelings were hurt, well, what the hell is even going on really.

[Cap]

For what it is worth, as a relatively new member who posts inconsistently at best, it is good to hear these sorts of posts that affirm a desire for this board to be open. I think it is unreasonable for a community that has spent time together and has people who invest massive amounts of time to be completely open in practice, so I do see some things that can be a turn off for new posters, but I don't really fault people for it. I think generally there is a desire to include more voices and enjoy wrestling here (at least I hope there is, that is why i stick around and post from time to time). Implicit exclusion is common in all groups, so it is just good to see explicit commitments to pushing back against it.

[Jetlag]

I don't see how people can have a problem with this Top 100. I mean, you all have your own Top 100, right? I know my Top 100 is the best. So what if 150 people vote the Beatles as the greatest rock band ever and didn't even include Demilich in their Top 100... I can just ignore that and listen to Nespithe again.

[JKWebb]

I appreciate Grimmas taking the time to put this list together. The whole process has spawned many great discussions and suggestions. I've loved all the podcasts, and especially the fact no one list is the same. I want to hear different opinions. I also want to watch more wrestling. This project has totally helped with that, and gets me pumped to seek out new footage. I don't like wasting my time, so when posters who have watched more footage than me make suggestions, that's fucking great.

[WingedEagle]

I don't see how people can have a problem with this Top 100. I mean, you all have your own Top 100, right? I know my Top 100 is the best. So what if 150 people vote the Beatles as the greatest rock band ever and didn't even include Demilich in their Top 100... I can just ignore that and listen to Nespithe again.

 

Because every one of us wants our guys to rank where WE ranked them. And we'll go the mattresses if they don't

 

Its just something to talk about.

[victory]

Buddy Rose is my first top ten guy to drop. I had him at 9.

 

Windham and Casas I was pretty close on. I had Barry at 24 and Casas at 21.

[ShittyLittleBoots]

Finally able to post! Thanks to whoever made it possible, haha.

Major props to Grimmas for doing this. Been loving the list reveals so far!

[Cap]

I have no idea what you're talking about. If people commented on stuff and then someone PMed them about how their opinions suck and then they PMd you how their feelings were hurt, well, what the hell is even going on really.

I doubt that is how it happened. There is definitely some implicit (but probably not intentional) dismissal of opinions. I can't speak for anyone else and wont pretend to, but I personally don't really feel like part of the community here. I feel welcome to come and post stuff, but not part of the community itself and I don't blame anyone for that at all. It is as much or more my fault as anyone, but it is the product of a few things that MIGHT shed light on what Grimmas is talking about.

 

I feel like I haven't watched hardly anything compared to most of the regulars here. I feel like I have watched a lot but much of the conversation here reaches a level of detail that is hard to keep up with (dates, date ranges, holistic understanding of careers, incredible recall of spots, cards, drawing power, etc) and it can be intimidating. On top of that I do think there is probably a tendency among regulars and establish members to keep up with and respond to posts and posters they know or recognize. It is natural. I'll admit. I have posted a few lengthy things that got no response, more or less skipped over in the larger conversation. Honestly, it is fine. Maybe they were shit, maybe they weren't interesting, maybe they were things said by someone else six months earlier... I suspect it is just a natural flow of conversation in communities where people recognize one other. I am not particularly bothered by it, never went to an admin about it, but I recognized it and can imagine others would be bothered by it, even turned off. Finally, some regular posters are very blunt about dismissing certain things or ideas (not harsh, but blunt). Some of that I imagine is a joke or sarcasm that gets lost in translation, but some of it is just communication style. When you put that with how intimidating this community's knowledge can be and what are really natural ebbs and flows of conversation on a board like this, it isn't that crazy to think that people who lurk or are new might not feel like their opinions are valuable here.

 

That all said, I also think that there is a lot of respect for people who have alternative or unpopular views so long as they are supported. There is definitely an effort to make people feel welcome and that should be recognized too.

 

Ok, I am done. I am not sure if that was helpful in anyway. I do really enjoy the board and really appreciate the efforts of people to make wrestling and wrestling conversation available to people. That is just sort of my take on why people might not feel welcome.

[Beast]

OK, admin step in time...

 

I understand people's frustrations with how people are dropping like flies. However, at no point, will this project or any project promoted at PWO be shut off to the general wrestling public. I understand that many people here put a lot of time in this project. However, we are hoping to attract more posters, not push people away. As somebody who has participated in polls and projects for years (and a huge Memphis fan), allowing people to participate is a positive thing. Some people don't want to engage in debates so they don't post. Others don't want to get ganged up on (and that absolutely happens here). Others have felt ignored when they made points that fall on deaf ears. Something I have heard countless times (and even in these threads) is that they are overwhelmed by the knowledge of some regular posters. I tried to demonstrate with my recent string of podcasts that the experiences and personal connections shape people's lists. I want to hear more of these voices... not discourage them from participating in future projects.

 

 

This is it in a nutshell.

[GOTNW]

The list is fine for what it is but I do think it is telling that even with all the talk about how much better lucha was going to do etc. the highest ranked luchador on this list did worse than the highest ranked luchador on the 2006 one.

 

I mean I'm sure Grimmas realises how grateful everyone is how his efforts by the amount of thanks and compliments he's gotten for putting it all together. It's certainly a good thing for PWO as a community. I just don't see these assholes shitting on someone's journey. Frankly, if someone is insecure about their opinions, that's their own problem. PWO is the last place where anyone is going to be judged. They'll encounter a lot of fierce debate for sure, but that's kind of the entire point-Dylan writing this huge essay and you telling him he's a fucking mark that doesn't know shit about wrestling and that Mochizuki is a better worker than Jimmy Rave. Even if the results haven't gone the way many of us had hoped they would (and they may never will probably) I do think it was a big step forward for pro wrestling critique for whatever that's worth. That there isn't anyone who made all ballots. That the flaws of every worker, no matter how beloved they might be, were acknowledged. And so on.

[soup23]

Good post CapitalTTruth.

[El-P]

I'm a Regal fan. I had him at #73. Won't say more about this issue.

 

Fujinami deserved a big boost from last time. Great junior then great heavyweight. But I do feel his 80's are sometimes a bit uneven once he graduated, and let's not talk about his 90's in details. So I had him at #41. May or may not get higher if I watched more past his prime stuff that may have been really good. I know there's probably some of it buried in NJ TV blocks, and maybe even in MUGA. But I've seen far too much lazy Fujinami past injury for him to get too close from the top 20. Lazy Fujinami is nothing you want to see. Great Fujinami is terrific.