The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[TheDuke]

5 hours ago, Edwin said:

... the random tree from his yard extending into his neighbors yard story.

The saga of the tree in Jim Cornette's yard was truly epic. 

I find it ironic that Cornette hates Russo who likes to book shooty bullshit, and then when you hear Corny's ideas it is a lot of shooty bullshit. I kind of think that the Cornette-Russo team is what made me love 1997 WWE so much.

[The Thread Killer]

I agree. It is funny and ironic that the booking team of McMahon, Russo and Cornette actually created a significant amount of memorable stuff in 1997.  It was only after Russo forced Cornette off the creative team and Cornette left to start OVW that things really started to get stupid during the "Attitude Era" in my opinion.

[NintendoLogic]

Dave is now openly comparing Cornette to Trump. Talk about hitting him where he lives. He's obviously far from the first to make the comparison, but it has to sting coming from someone Cornette was close with for so long and surely still respects on some level.

[El-P]

That comparison was made on this board before (hell, I even made the same exact remark as a joke a few posts above). Yeah, what sucks is that Dave & Corny were old friends dating back from the 80's, but Corny has to drive everyone away from him because HE HATES KENNY OMEGA AND THE YOUNG BUCKS WHO CAN'T WORK AND ARE KILLING THE BUSINESS !!!! It's sad.

[GSR]

Just now, NintendoLogic said:

Dave is now openly comparing Cornette to Trump. Talk about hitting him where he lives. He's obviously far from the first to make the comparison, but it has to sting coming from someone Cornette was close with for so long and surely still respects on some level.

From listening to Observer Radio the other day, it sounded like Cornette's comments on the Observer Hall of Fame, accusing Dave of fabricating ballots and fixing the numbers so that Omega got elected, bothered Dave more than anything else that Corny has said about him.  I also found it pretty amusing about how Cornette's sycophant was ragging on the Hall of Fame for having Benoit in, yet Dave pointed out that the best argument put forward for Benoit remaining in the Hall was put forward by Cornette, which I presume Corny kept quiet about on his podcast.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

That comparison was made on this board before (hell, I even made the same exact remark as a joke a few posts above). Yeah, what sucks is that Dave & Corny were old friends dating back from the 80's, but Corny has to drive everyone away from him because HE HATES KENNY OMEGA AND THE YOUNG BUCKS WHO CAN'T WORK AND ARE KILLING THE BUSINESS !!!! It's sad.

Jim Cornette and Dave Meltzer's friendship did not end just because Meltzer praises Kenny Omega and The Young Bucks.  That is an oversimplification of what happened. Cornette has alluded to some of the reasons on his podcast, but it was more Brian Last who was a lot more open about it when it was pretty clear Cornette didn't want to discuss it. The details are out there, but you have to know where they are, and finding them involves listening to Cornette's side...which of course a lot of people understandably don't want to do. It was just a couple of years ago that Cornette actually had Meltzer on his podcast and they had a spirited debate about Omega and "modern wrestling."  They ended up agreeing to disagree.  The Cornette/Meltzer relationship ended after that and not just because Meltzer likes AEW.  That is certainly a factor and it plays into the falling out, but it is not the primary reason.

Both Cornette and Jim Ross have publicly stated that clearly they don't agree on AEW and modern wrestling, and there has been some sniping back and forth, but they have both said they are still friends. Cornette is also still friends with other people in the industry who like or even work for AEW.  There's more to the Cornette/Meltzer relationship ending and in some ways it says just as much about Dave Meltzer as it does Jim Cornette.

[FMKK]

Care to give us a hint?

[rovert]

12 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Care to give us a hint?

Meltzer took direct and thinly veiled shots out of relatively nowhere towards Jim on Twitter over a fairly long stretch of time.

I've very little time for what Cornette has evolved into but Dave definitely sowed the seeds. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

The details are out there, but you have to know where they are, and finding them involves listening to Cornette's side...which of course a lot of people understandably don't want to do.

Plus, I don't really care that much, honestly (aka, "at all"). But I remember an interview with Dutch Mantell where he basically said Cornette was impossible because he just took things way too much at heart when it came down to pro-wrestling.

[Edwin]

Aside from he jabs on Twitter, Cornette and Last also said on their podcast that Meltzer had Omega on his podcast once for an interview and before it ended Meltzer began asking Omega about Cornette just so he could take more jabs at him. Cornette does go overboard with his reactions, but Meltzer also needs to learn to let things go and keep drilling them for no real reason. I get it keep folks keep asking about Cornette, but he can easily ignore them.

[Coffey]

Jim Cornette strikes me as a man that takes things way too seriously & that isn't a good trait to have in someone that also very obviously has anger issues.

Dave Meltzer strikes me as someone that isn't as smart & he thinks he is & doesn't want to ever admit to being wrong about anything. Which aren't great traits to have in someone that's a journalist.

So yeah, it's like one is gasoline & one is wood & Kenny Omega was the match.

[sek69]

One thing I've learned from seeing how Dave operates over the years is that you can take any shots at him you want and he largely ignores/laughs it off, but if you question his integrity he will get pissed. It's why he goes so hard at Bischoff/Pritchard because they use their podcast gimmicks to call him a liar who makes shit up. Cornette even implying the WON was not on the level due to Omega getting in was always going to be something that would set Dave off. 

 

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, FMKK said:

Care to give us a hint?

 

6 hours ago, rovert said:

Meltzer took direct and thinly veiled shots out of relatively nowhere towards Jim on Twitter over a fairly long stretch of time.

I've very little time for what Cornette has evolved into but Dave definitely sowed the seeds. 

Pretty much what @rovert said. Plus, I think the important thing when you look at the falling out between Cornette and Meltzer is the context and the history and depth of their friendship.

I remember reading Larry Matysik's book where he talked about the time in Professional Wrestling when Dave Meltzer first arrived on the scene.  "Kayfabe" was alive and well and the reaction to Meltzer and the Observer was apparently pretty vitriolic.  One one hand, a lot of people in the industry reportedly absolutely hated the guy for "exposing the business" (back when that was really a thing) while at the same time, Jim Ross has pointed out that half the guys who outwardly claimed to hate Meltzer's guts secretly subscribed to the newsletter under different names.  The point is, when Meltzer first arrived on the scene it, behind the scenes in Pro Wrestling it was not considered to be a particularly wise move to admit that you read the Observer, never mind admitting that you actually talked to Dave Meltzer.  Remember Mick Foley even mentioned that in his first book, that he thought Dave Meltzer was so hated in the Pro Wrestling business that Foley joked that he assumed Meltzer had to stay in hiding like Salman Rushdie.

There were guys who did talk to Meltzer, of course.  He got his information from someplace, obviously.  Larry Matysik was one of those guys, as was Bruiser Brody (which probably helps explain why Meltzer deifies Brody to this day.)  There were plenty of others.  But there was a big difference between the guys who would talk to Meltzer and those who would admit they talked to Meltzer and even go so far as to defend the guy. Jim Cornette is one of the few guys who was pretty much open about the fact that he subscribed to the Observer and moreover he was friends with Dave Meltzer. Cornette has said he would talk to Meltzer all the time.  They apparently shared an enthusiasm for Pro Wrestling history and traded tapes.  Hell, it is a fact that Dave Meltzer got his famous "star rating system" from Jim Cornette.  Jim Cornette really legitimately liked Dave Meltzer and considered him a personal friend.  This became obvious several times over the years when Cornette would leap to Meltzer's defense when other names in the industry would bash Meltzer and try and discredit him.  I don't think this was just a casual friendship, I think Cornette had some loyalty to Dave Meltzer and legitimately liked him and respected his work.

Their friendship appeared to be intact up until very recently.  Once Cornette more or less retired from any significant active participation in Pro Wrestling, we all know he started venting about "modern" Pro Wrestling in countless Shoot Interviews and his podcast.  Around the same time, Dave Meltzer was getting into PWG and then established his presence on Twitter.  It's pretty obvious that the PWG crowd embraced Dave Meltzer a lot more openly than he had historically been received behind the scenes.  I don't know if that was the reason why, but like rovert pointed out, Meltzer started taking shots at Jim Cornette on Twitter and defending the PWG crowd...ironically much in the way that Cornette had used Twitter to defend Meltzer against guys like Bruce Prichard and Eric Bischoff.  Periodically on his podcast, Brian Last would ask Jim Cornette about something Meltzer had said about Cornette on Twitter (usually pertaining to his being out of touch with the modern product or something like that) and usually Cornette would either laugh and shrug it off, or at worst he would say something mildly antagonistic back.  But you could tell they were still friends. Like I said, Cornette even had Meltzer on his podcast in the last couple of years to "debate" modern Pro Wrestling with him.

Apparently, the issues that caused the permanent rift between Cornette and Meltzer was two-fold.  Firstly, I guess Brian Last is a member at Dave Meltzer's messageboard that is attached to the Observer. (I don't know much about it, I do not subscribe to the Observer but I've heard people refer to it as "The Board.")  Dave Meltzer supposedly made a couple of sharply worded comments or statements about Jim Cornette on that board.  Brian Last is friends with Dave Meltzer but he is obviously also friends with Jim Cornette.  Last supposedly contacted Cornette and asked him if there was legit issues between Meltzer and Cornette.  When Cornette asked him why, Last told him what Meltzer had said about Cornette on his messageboard.  I assume Cornette does not have a membership at that messageboard, so he was unaware that Meltzer had said anything derogatory or insulting about him.  Cornette claims that he contacted Dave Meltzer and asked him if they had a problem. Meltzer reportedly denied it.  Cornette reportedly asked Meltzer to lay off the insults towards him out of respect for their friendship, and the inference was that Cornette would refrain from bashing Meltzer for his opinion on modern Pro Wrestling (although he obviously wouldn't stop bashing modern Pro Wrestling.)  Cornette seemed to think they had a gentleman's agreement not to antagonize each other in public anymore.  Whether or not that is true is up for speculation.

It was apparently not too long after that when Dave Meltzer Tweeted his infamous statement that The Young Bucks were the modern incarnation of the Midnight Express.  Obviously that antagonized Jim Cornette, and Brian Last has said that he feels that it was clearly intended to do so.  Regardless, Cornette didn't flip out on Meltzer for making the statement about the Midnight Express (although he would have done so anyhow) but he was pissed off because they had supposedly just privately agreed not to publicly bash or antagonize each other. Cornette has claimed (right or wrong) that Dave Meltzer was basically trying to ingratiate himself with the "cool kids" by deliberately pissing off one of his oldest friends.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the situation regarding Jim Cornette's infamous "Fried Chicken" joke on NWA Power which resulted in his quitting the NWA and retiring from any active participation in modern Pro Wrestling at all.  Dave Meltzer reported on the situation in the Observer.  Cornette had no issue with that, because it was news.  However, Meltzer wrote the story and supposedly got a number of details wrong because (in true modern Meltzer fashion) he couldn't be bothered to pick up the phone to call Jim Cornette and get his side of the story or verify any of the details.  Which means one of two things...either Meltzer thought Cornette would lie to him, or he was just being lazy and couldn't bother to do his research. I guess the other possibility is that he knew Cornette was pissed at him for violating their agreement about taking shots at each other, and Meltzer wanted to avoid talking to Cornette because he knew Cornette was going to give him an earful over the whole Bucks/Midnight Express thing.  Either way, Cornette felt that the fact was that his friend of almost 30 years couldn't even be bothered to pick up the phone and check on the details of a story that directly involved him.

Jim Cornette claims that he sent Dave Meltzer an email and told him that he was not interested in being friends with him anymore.  His reasons were that Meltzer insisted on taking shots at him, and wasn't showing him any respect.  You could tell when Cornette discussed it that despite all his bluster, his feelings were hurt. I think it's pretty obvious that Cornette thinks he had done a lot to help Dave Meltzer over the years, and defended him when a lot of other people wouldn't.  Despite what some people might like to claim, I don't think Cornette begrudges Dave Meltzer his opinion on modern Pro Wrestling...although he clearly doesn't agree with it.  But like I said earlier, look at Jim Ross in comparison.  Jim Ross and Jim Cornette have been friends for years and have both said that they "love" each other.  They have both said that when they have interacted, they have just avoided the topic of AEW and modern Pro Wrestling altogether, out of respect for their friendship.  Both guys have sniped at each other on their respective podcasts, but their friendship is intact. Ditto Arn Anderson (minus the sniping) and Tony Schiavone and several others.

I think making a general statement implying that Jim Cornette hates modern Pro Wrestling so much that he stopped being friends with Dave Meltzer just because he likes it is a gross oversimplification of the issue between those guys.  It is sad that their friendship ended. Brian Last has stated more than once that he doesn't understand why Dave Meltzer couldn't just agree to disagree with Cornette and let the issue go.  I honestly think if Meltzer had laid off the cheap shots on Twitter (and on his board supposedly) then Cornette probably would have as well.  There is plenty of evidence to suggest that he has done that for his other friends.  But for some reason, Dave Meltzer insisted on working his "Twitter Dave" gimmick when it came to Jim Cornette.

A theory is that Dave Meltzer knew that Jim Cornette is considered "toxic" by modern Pro Wrestling fans and most active Pro Wrestling organizations, so he wanted to distance himself from Cornette because it would hurt his reputation.  I can't help but wonder if Meltzer stayed friends with Cornette while he was a source and useful to him, and also his defender.  Cornette opened doors in the Pro Wrestling business for Dave Meltzer and made it okay to read his newsletter, talk to the guy and believe what he said.  But once Cornette was no longer active in the business and had a lot of bad publicity on him, all of the sudden Meltzer is taking shots at his friend in public. That's certainly plausible.  But it's a little sad.  I saw an interview with FTR where they said they got the cold shoulder when they first came to AEW because they had appeared on Cornette's podcast and were friendly with him. It really does seem like Meltzer pretty much chose to try and ingratiate himself with the guys in AEW at the expense of his friendship with Jim Cornette just as much as Cornette chose to say shit that he knew would upset Dave Meltzer about his opinions.

That's on both of them, not just Jim Cornette.

[cm funk]

Honestly, I don't have time for this bullshit, but I tend to take Dave's side on most things these days.  I don't agree with him 100% at all, it's hilarious hearing him and Bryan go back and forth on stuff lately because some of Dave's takes are just way off and Bryan is "flabbergasted"

But I listen to Corny too....and I'm sorry, the man is bitter and angry about a lot of shit and it clouds his vision

As for Lasto, I'm a fan of his podcasts, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find him a bit two faced at times.  He's a jerk, but so what, I like jerks.  I still don't know exactly what happened with him and Bix, but I'm guessing Lasto was the jerk in that situation.

I feel like in real life I'd get along with all of these people because we share common interests, none of them are dumbasses, but internet beef brings out the worst in people

[WrestlingPower]

I haven't caught up on the podcasts, but based on seeing some of the twitter conversations btw Last & Meltzer over the weekend, it seems that Dave was taking things a bit far.  Listening to Last's 605 HOF specials, it seems his main issue with Omega's induction is that he was considered in the Japanese category & should have been in the American if his AEW run was indeed a swing vote.  Not sure if that factor was mentioned on the Cornette show or not since I haven't heard but based on what Last was saying on twitter was that they weren't seriously saying the voting was rigged.  Sounds like Dave got overly sensitive that it could be interpreted as them questioning the validity of the voting (almost sounds as if they were doing a bit about the presidential election).  Cornette and Last (and a majority of the guys on the HOF shows) say that Meltzer has lost a lot credibility in recent years due to his defending Omega & the Bucks and it's no doubt he influences his voters just based on him constantly sharing opinions.  This dates back to when Nakamura went into the HOF as apparently there was at least one voter who voted for him based on all the talk he was getting in the Observer and even gave the wrong name for him, he was so unfamiliar.  All that to say I think Last & Corny have a legit point of wondering why Meltzer has sacrificed a years-long reputation and friendships in order to appear as part of the "in crowd".

[El-P]

The issue with that argument is that Meltzer only "sacrified his reputation" from the point of view of the people who refuse to even *consider* that Omega and the Bucks might actually be great and successful and don't even try to understand why they *may* be in the wrong. There's no "in crowd" to be part of, there are only people who love what great pro-wrestling has become in 2020 and are establishing the current canon, which doesn't have to refer to the past as some kind of untouchable monument (because it would be ridiculous). Like in the 80's when Flair and the MX were the "best thing going today" (and you know the rest).

[Mad Dog]

Yeah. The Japanese argument feels like a way to avoid the actual merits of Omega as a candidate and still shit on him. 

[Robert S]

14 hours ago, WrestlingPower said:

Not sure if that factor was mentioned on the Cornette show or not since I haven't heard but based on what Last was saying on twitter was that they weren't seriously saying the voting was rigged.

From what I remember, it was a mostly complaining about the "reporters" voter category (and I think it is no secret that Dave has given out ballots left and right to "reporters" who only match that term in the broadest sense) and to a lesser degree about the "active wrestlers" - while ignoring that historians also had Omega pretty high up there. That plus using the whole thing and the situation with Orange 45 for a not too funny joke.

One problem with having Kenny Omega in the Japanese category is that loads of people voted for him, who would not be called experts on Japanese wrestling. I.e. by voting for Omega, they inadvertently voted against Akira Taue or Yoshiaki Fujiwara, for example. But that is mostly a general problem with Dave's system.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'd like to thank Cornette for introducing me to Undertaker's Cameo videos. 

[Dav'oh]

I can and do watch early Hogan, I can watch Benoit, I've caught up on some Invader, I can watch Austin, been watching Memphis Lawler (and Dundee) over lockdown - Jim Cornette is small potatoes. He's clearly ignorant of his casual racism, which, like all racism, is a matter of educating people, so he's not irredeemable on that front. 

I like listening to him - I haven't found anyone "smarter" than him. I don't need his analysis of modern wrestling, I've got mine own eyes for that. I doubt he gives two craps about Kenny once the microphones are turned off. I can't see Jim laying on a headshrinker's couch detailing the emotional distress My Shadow and Me continues to cause him, nor do I believe his quack has prescribed him benzos to deal with Young Bucks-induced anxiety. I'm sure he believes what he says, but Jimbo's wrestling gimmick was "colourful, annoying and over-excitable" so of course he's going to keep being that persona on-air.

[MoS]

2 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

He's clearly ignorant of his casual racism, which, like all racism, is a matter of educating people, so he's not irredeemable on that front. 

Oh, my man, I wish I had as sunny an outlook on life as you do. Not saying Corny is one of them, but there are absolutely people who revel in their racism and no amount of "educating them" could change that. 

[BigBadMick]

Has anyone else tried out the watch-alongs Cornette has been doing? I really enjoyed the Magnum-Tully starrcade one.

[War is Raw]

On 11/25/2020 at 11:55 AM, Robert S said:

One problem with having Kenny Omega in the Japanese category is that loads of people voted for him, who would not be called experts on Japanese wrestling. I.e. by voting for Omega, they inadvertently voted against Akira Taue or Yoshiaki Fujiwara, for example. But that is mostly a general problem with Dave's system.

It's the honor system with Dave, yet he doesn't see it like that. Anyone who has a ballot can self-identity as an expert in any given category he (yes, 99% of the voters are men) chooses.

Not sure why so many people push back on any criticism of his HOF procedures. People have been attacking the Baseball HOF's methods since inception. We all want the best people nominated, and a fair system.

[FMKK]

90% of his major league career has been in Japan so where else should he have put Omega?

[sek69]

I think the whole deal with the Kenny stuff is  that Jim apparently is completely incapable of believing anyone thinks he's not the worst thing ever to happen in wrestling so it must be due to Dave putting his thumb on the scales.  The idea that people could like Kenny and think he's great seems to be a completely alien concept to him.

It's seemed to completely break his brain that a company where 3 of the 4 VPs are people he hates has been successful after he was on the record stating it would fail.  At this point even if AEW isn't your jam if you can't admit it's been a major success even having to deal with a global pandemic, you're just being willfully ignorant.