overbooked Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 There needs to be a creator or appropriator for it to be art. It can't just be a man pointing to a cloud and calling it art. Not unless he can find some way of exhibiting it. Even then, a nature reserve isn't art, it's a nature reserve. No amount of theory can get you to the point where the distinction between art and nature breaks down because their difference from each other is fundamental to their definition. Art presupposes human intervention and creativity. Nature presupposes an absence of human activity. So maybe your dolphin show at waterworld could be called art, because it's a human creative vision that gave you the show. What constitutes "art" does have wide limits, but to act as if there as no limits is incorrect and renders the word meaningless. But those limits are subject to change. Photography, film, folk art, cave paintings were once considered not to be art. The definition of art is not set in stone. And wrestling already fulfils plenty of the conditions to be art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 When did beauty in itself become art? EDIT: Within the art, there is no end to subjectivity. Appropriating subjectivity to every aspect of life, maybe life itself, seems like a very scary act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 This morning, over breakfast, my son moved some baked beans around on his plate to form a smiley face. He proceeded to claim this to be a work of art. To me it was just some beans that looked like a smiley face. Each to their own I guess. The face did look very happy though....and so did my son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Is wrestling an artform or a skill/craft. You can be really skilled at the craft of pro-wrestling (Randy Orton) but does that make you a great wrestler (because your matches are boring)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The reason wrestling matches now don't look like wrestling matches 30 years ago is because of wrestlers caring about their craft. You could argue changes being for better or worse, but if wrestlers didn't care, they'd still be working the same way they did when the in-ring component was much easier on their bodies. But again, the intention of the creator has nothing to do with it. Kind of an oversimplification IMO. 1. There were great wrestling matches 30 years ago too. 2. The schedule back then was a lot more brutal than it is now, which lent itself to more phoning it in, shorter matches, etc. 3. Today's wrestlers are better athletes because the world in general is more knowledgeable about health, fitness, etc. I realize I'm oversimplifying matters too, but all of those factors do make a difference in today's style and speed of wrestling vs. 30 years ago. Yes, they do. But to say it's all about the money is also false. There was a story a couple of years ago where an unnamed old-timer called Dave in disbelief after having quite a few WWE guys to his house after a show when no one knew what the house or attendance was when he asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overbooked Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Is wrestling an artform or a skill/craft. You can be really skilled at the craft of pro-wrestling (Randy Orton) but does that make you a great wrestler (because your matches are boring)? Well, the terms of art and craft and the boundaries between them are already pretty contested generally, so that might makes a tough framework for a debate on wrestling. But...I'd perhaps see craft more around the execution (moves, selling, crowd interaction etc) with the art being the overall effect that craft produces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 In that analogy, Orton would simply be a bad artist, but he would still be an artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 I'm debating what any of the last 3 pages had to do with wrestling at all. I'm of the opinion that wrestling is one of my favorite things. Whether it is defined as an art or a craft or whatever, I fucking love it. There is bad wrestling to be sure but that comes with every form of entertainment. There is definitely an art to pro wrestling when done at it's highest levels, but I don't know that qualifies wrestling to be defined as an art if I come right down to it. Either way, it seems like a debate to be had when there is nothing else demanding my attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yuck. Queen suck. And that's a fact. Loss, ban this guy please. As someone who had a Freddy mercury avatar for years... i am on it!!!! Loss can ban Johnny Sorrow for questioning Duran Duran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 In that analogy, Orton would simply be a bad artist, but he would still be an artist. Which is a fairly fitting description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The OED might be a place to start: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/art The OED and dictionaries don't set definitions of words, they codify them after common usage. I actually agree with your point that nature is not art, though I cut that back by saying it is easy to find artistic qualities to nature (mainly, beauty or some other aesthetic merit). As for wrestling, I'd put it as an art. Maybe a shallow/low brow art form in a societal context, but heavy handed moral messages and tropes are still art, even if they're not the equivalent of a Renaissance masterwork in paint or sculpture. The form itself is still art even if you're trying to make money off of it, or treating it and its consumers as beneath you so that you only give the lowest necessary performance possible while still being relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 If we define art as, well, art, then a banana or a cloud cannot be art by themselves. But they can very easily be conveyed into art by painting,photography and film. And they could also be declared art if a human were to modify them somehow-creation is but an illusion anyway. Interested in how banana art looks like? http://www.tofugu.com/2011/12/05/banana-art-keisuke-yamada/ I liked Bill Thompson's arguments until he decided to challenge the definition of art itself because I don't think that is necessary to recognize pro wrestling as an artform. If we can prove pro wrestling fits the norms of what art is conventionally defined as then challenging the very definition of art is completely redundant for this discussion.Pro wrestling could be seen as a performance art, but we should not ignore the fact that it is also often filmed which further enriches its potential beauty. You cannot look at Lucha Underground and ignore the effort that it took to produce the show. But you can also look at Memphis shows and appreciate the still and focused camera work for the atmosphere it creates. Meanwhile Raw has shitty camera work which evokes nausea. You could attend Lucha Underground and Raw tapings and even if they were identical in quality live watching Lucha Underground's television show would be far more aesthetically pleasing.But we don't really perceive wrestling shows like other TV shows. This is mostly because of how stale wrestling shows have looked throughout their history. It's fascinating that no one had thought of implementing techniques used literally everywhere else before Lucha Underground. And it's something that could be taken even further. If someone were willing to invest in it there's no reason why a post-wrestling show couldn't be created. The people in attendance are there for the action anyway-why not experiment with the narration? I mean this: certainly isn't going to create high end art.Even if we were to just focus on pro wrestling as a performance art there is no reason why it shouldn't be seen as art. The only thing I've gathered from this thread is that pro wrestling somehow inherently cannot be art because someone deems it not fit as such. Which is completely irrelevant. We aren't arguing about whether or not pro wrestling is seen as an art but whether it should be. And considering what passes for art these days it's not very hard to make an argument pro wrestling should as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Yuck. Queen suck. And that's a fact. Loss, ban this guy please. As someone who had a Freddy mercury avatar for years... i am on it!!!! Loss can ban Johnny Sorrow for questioning Duran Duran. Whats the question? Name an eighties band that stinks? Power Station was better and that stunk. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 If Loss bans you I cannot save you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 You also don't like Power Station?? Oh, it's on. "Some Like It Hot" is awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 The only "Some Like It Hot" worth a damn stars Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis. Nobody's perfect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I meant the song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Before I die, I'm going to get more wrestling fans to admit that there is lots and lots of great music that doesn't have a hard rock edge, that synthesizers are a good thing, that pop that was made after the 1960s can be great, that songs by women are often awesome and that gay men have the best tastes in music, as even the bad stuff is good on a camp level. I'm stereotyping, I know, but pro wrestling's music sensibilities are too testosterone-driven and rock-centric sometimes. Sorry to take this off the beaten path. I should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I'd co-sign that Loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 gay men have the best tastes in music Touché Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Before I die, I'm going to get more wrestling fans to admit that there is lots and lots of great music that doesn't have a hard rock edge, that synthesizers are a good thing, that pop that was made after the 1960s can be great, that songs by women are often awesome and that gay men have the best tastes in music, as even the bad stuff is good on a camp level. I'm stereotyping, I know, but pro wrestling's music sensibilities are too testosterone-driven and rock-centric sometimes. Sorry to take this off the beaten path. I should know better. Definitely. I'm generally someone that would take Diana Ross over Bob Dylan. All the best people I follow on Rateyourmusic turn out to be gay or transgender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Queen still suck though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Censorship sucks too. Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Faulconer Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Wow. This thread really took the starch out of two of my favourite things. Maybe I should say *one* thing since I'm one of those who would call pro wrestling an art form. It doesn't belong in a museum (unless Santo and Blue Panther are in the UK) but it is judged on various individual criteria that aren't entwined with statistics like sports are. In Canada all pro wrestling shows are classified by the PVR listings as SPORTS. Then again there are broadcasters who compare athletes to artists and sports to art forms. It felt like ten years ago or so almost everyone who posted on DVDVR or someplace like PWO called pro wrestling an art. It wasn't a bunch of stats that sports fans could compare or relate to the standings that teams are always trying to climb. It was around the time Eddie Guerrero died a lot of the fun of talking about wrestling and writing about it online was lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Man that society with its "rules" like the basic definitions of words and shit. Fuck that society. I'm not going to call it an "apple" any more. That's what the man wants! I'm going to call it the "potato of the sky!" YEAHH! Art pertains to things that are man-made or else arranged. Nature to things that occur naturally. Science to the scientific method. "Man you and your RIGID RULES about words and their meanings!" I can absolutely change the name of an apple over time. I may not get a lot of people to agree with me right away, but it's totally possible. Xerox got a mimeograph machine to forever be called a Xerox machine. Since you enjoy going academic, I suggest reading some Durkheim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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