goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yes! I made that point last night on the Reaction Show. Kevin Owens is awesome as a heel because he is a heel every second he is in front of a camera. What about when he ran over to ringside during his intro to hug somebody? From day one, Owens said he only did this to feed his family. If he hugs his family, I am absolutely cool with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 In Sasha's last NXT match with Charlotte they beat the crap out of each other for 15+ minutes. Then cried and hugged and celebrated afterwards. If you actually follow NXT this wasn't out of character for Sasha. If anything it was odd that she paired up with Naomi and Tamina when she showed up on RAW.....but I guess it fits her BOSS character (more likely WWE just stuck three 'ethnic' women together because that's what they do) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Or think of it like UFC fighters who talk all kinds of shit to hype up their fights......then afterwards show mad respect and praise the other guy. And that's real Sasha's just good at hyping herself up. She knows how to sell fights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellmania Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 honestly I look at the post-match hugs and stuff as being out of canon. It's literally like a curtain call at the end of a play or whatever. It's not a part of the performance. I know that kind of kills kayfabe, but I totally get it in this context. I don't expect this to be something these girls are going to do throughout their entire careers, but I think they are genuinely part of something really special right now and at the end of the day savoring the moment takes precedence over trying to keep kayfabe in a situation where everyone in the crowd is already smart to what's going on anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I haven't watched the show or the match yet, so I don't want to comment on that, but I would be interested in a discussion at some point about people who like modern women in WWE who can't get into 90s Joshi. It's not something I'm criticizing since I don't really understand it well enough to do so, but it is something I'd like to see explored and explained more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Fun show, everything landed, but not the show of the year. Based on the reports from the ROH show, it may not have even been the best show in Brooklyn last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 In Sasha's last NXT match with Charlotte they beat the crap out of each other for 15+ minutes. Then cried and hugged and celebrated afterwards. If you actually follow NXT this wasn't out of character for Sasha. If anything it was odd that she paired up with Naomi and Tamina when she showed up on RAW.....but I guess it fits her BOSS character (more likely WWE just stuck three 'ethnic' women together because that's what they do) I'm with this. It just isn't completely out of character for Sasha to show this kind of respect. She's a heel's heel, but she's not a Kevin Owens psychopath. (Granted one day he's gonna show someone a small modicum of respect and it may or may not be huge. Maybe Brock after he wakes up from the coma) I don't know what kind of savage you'd have to be to deny the girls that moment in front of those appreciative fans, because it didn't fit your "continuity." Sasha can still be an asshole tomorrow. Or tonight, whatever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Which is seen by more eyes: NXT Takeover Brooklyn, with The Four Horsewomen doing the curtain call on WWE Network, or Triple H tweeting behind-the-scenes, kayfabe breaking photos to his 2.33 Million followers. I have a problem with all of it, mind you, and think shit like that is a big reason why heels can't get any heat nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Even if they did it, it could've been slightly more begrudging. I think that there are ways to do it where Sasha would have come off more reluctant that would have made it both more acceptable and even more emotional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Fans are sophisticated enough now to know the difference between in & out of character. This isn't 1973, I had zero problem with it. It was a good moment. You could justify it from a storyline POV anyway, since it was the culmination of the story of those four battling in Full Sail for so long, and now showing the world why they garnered so much buzz. Plus Sasha was pretty close to being a tweener in NXT lately anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Even if they did it, it could've been slightly more begrudging. I think that there are ways to do it where Sasha would have come off more reluctant that would have made it both more acceptable and even more emotional. This is probably the correct answer. Sasha does the staredown, will she or won't she shake hands, ends up breaking down, hug, fade to black. But I can't fault her for getting caught up in that emotion. What we got was still pretty special Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Simon Gotch is fucking awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I said as much in about seventeen paragraphs on the PTBN Reaction show thread, but I quite liked the sentiment behind the moment and didn't mind that it was incongruous to RAW. Mainly because all three women have been horribly booked on RAW and I barely watch that show, which is far less interesting week to week than NXT. NXT need not fit into the box that Vince and Dunn draw up. The curtain call felt like the end of one chapter, with tonight as the start of another. Where Sasha goes from here is anyone's guess, but even having Naomi and Tamina scowling at her from ringside is either going to be blown off as nothing, or the beginning of a remodeling of the factions. It's clear that the integration of the NXT women into the main roster was half-baked at best, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them realign Sasha with PCB in the near future. Seriously: I'm not that concerned with how a curtain call jibes with the characterization of the last two weeks in the lives of freaking Naomi and Tamina. The greater concern is what happens with Banks going forward, and last night told a better story than the one Vince and co have told on RAW and SD. Which should surprise absolutely no one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yes! I made that point last night on the Reaction Show. Kevin Owens is awesome as a heel because he is a heel every second he is in front of a camera. What about when he ran over to ringside during his intro to hug somebody? Wasn't that his wife? I mean you have to go Doctor D David Schultz in order to show hate to your own family From what I remember the woman he hugged (he may have hugged multiple people, but I'm talking about the one caught on camera) was blonde and older ... maybe his mom? His wife has dark hair and is gorgeous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 In Sasha's last NXT match with Charlotte they beat the crap out of each other for 15+ minutes. Then cried and hugged and celebrated afterwards. If you actually follow NXT this wasn't out of character for Sasha. If anything it was odd that she paired up with Naomi and Tamina when she showed up on RAW.....but I guess it fits her BOSS character (more likely WWE just stuck three 'ethnic' women together because that's what they do) That makes me like Sasha less, not more. Be a BOSS, not an emotional wreck. Or think of it like UFC fighters who talk all kinds of shit to hype up their fights......then afterwards show mad respect and praise the other guy. And that's real Sasha's just good at hyping herself up. She knows how to sell fights It sucks in UFC too. I haven't watched the show or the match yet, so I don't want to comment on that, but I would be interested in a discussion at some point about people who like modern women in WWE who can't get into 90s Joshi. It's not something I'm criticizing since I don't really understand it well enough to do so, but it is something I'd like to see explored and explained more. It was never about the gender but the style. NXT girls don't wrestle like 90s AJW girls. Which is seen by more eyes: NXT Takeover Brooklyn, with The Four Horsewomen doing the curtain call on WWE Network, or Triple H tweeting behind-the-scenes, kayfabe breaking photos to his 2.33 Million followers. I have a problem with all of it, mind you, and think shit like that is a big reason why heels can't get any heat nowadays. Exactly! Even if they did it, it could've been slightly more begrudging. I think that there are ways to do it where Sasha would have come off more reluctant that would have made it both more acceptable and even more emotional. Agreed. A handshake with a disgusted look as she walks away pissed off. Perfectly acceptable. Fans are sophisticated enough now to know the difference between in & out of character. This isn't 1973, I had zero problem with it. It was a good moment. You could justify it from a storyline POV anyway, since it was the culmination of the story of those four battling in Full Sail for so long, and now showing the world why they garnered so much buzz. Plus Sasha was pretty close to being a tweener in NXT lately anyway. The fact that the four of them battling in Full Sail is part of the context in which you justify this bad storytelling is enough for me to dismiss this outright. Simon Gotch is fucking awesome. Fuck yeah he is!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Will, did you miss where Sasha teamed with Charlotte just about a month or so ago vs Dana and Emma on NXT tv? She was almost a babyface after the Becky match till the Bayley feud. Rewatched most of the show this morning. Joe/Corbin got better on second viewing. That was easily Joe's best match in NXT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I did and I didn't care for the match. It was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Will, did you miss where Sasha teamed with Charlotte just about a month or so ago vs Dana and Emma on NXT tv? She was almost a babyface after the Becky match till the Bayley feud. Rewatched most of the show this morning. Joe/Corbin got better on second viewing. That was easily Joe's best match in NXT. And then I thought she veered pretty heelish after that. Moreover, stuff like the endless stomps on the hand and the stairs shot and the trashtalking just goes over the line. I think she even mocked the Dusty polkadots before the match. You can have it both ways, but you kind of can't too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codysseus Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Sasha has also been a sweetheart at her core and had to GET MEAN to succeed. I think it makes sense to have her breakdown a bit and revert to that after such a big emotional match and loss. edit: She's also a very loved heel and her walking that line is quite okay with me, especially if she's not part of NXT anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 A couple of additional thoughts I had today after re-watching Banks/Bayley and reading some feedback on the show: * Triple H and Stephanie acting as NXT ambassadors on these NXT specials really annoys me. It is not even so much a "stick to one character" thing as it is an issue of there simply being no reason for those segments to exist beyond providing Triple H and Stephanie an opportunity to stroke their own egos. The segments add nothing. I am hard pressed to think of a purpose for their NXT segments other than as a means to pat themselves on the back. They are vanity segments and nothing more. * Granted I've only read the reaction here and on Twitter on Bayley/Banks but 90%+ said it was a "very good" match. You rarely get that sort of consensus opinion. The fact that there are those (I am in this group) who don't quite view it as a MOTYC isn't anything out of the norm. Its fascinating how worked up people are getting over some criticism of the match (not necessarily on this board) when it has received about as much universal praise as a match these days can. * It is less that I saw major issues with the match rather than I don't see the superlative moments that take it from "very good" to easy MOTYC/near 5-star match. It was a super solid match with a good story, a few really cool moments, and some execution issues. Taking a step back, I felt the same about 5-10 other matches this year. Looking back historically, I am not sure I liked it better then matches like (for example) Goldberg/DDP or Rey/Angle from Summer Slam in terms of very good matches that I wouldn't consider MOTYC's or classic matches. Still a great match, there just wasn't anything there that took it from a very good/great match to a surefire MOTYC/MOTY for me. * I didn't care for the post-match hug. Sasha Banks yelled at Bayley throughout the match about her not being any good, not being worthy of the title, ect. and then they hug like nothing is wrong? People have talked about how this match was so great in part because of everything that surrounded it. To me, the post-match was a huge negative in that regard. The build up was about one thing, the match was about that same thing, and the post-match was about something entirely different. Maybe its a face turn for Sasha and that would help a little. Even then, Sasha would come off as two-faced to me. She taunts and humiliates Bayley but then makes nice as soon as she is beat? That's not a babyface to me. Like Will said, I find that stupid even when it happens in shoots. If you are going to talk shit in the build up and during the fight/match, don't do an about face once you lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 And while everybody is watching SummerSlam, I watched NXT Takeover tonight. Some thoughts : Liger vs Breeze : each time I watch a NXT Takeover show, I mark out for Tyler Breeze's entrance. Just awesome, sexy, obnoxious and relevant to today's (sub) pop culture. Kinda sad Liger got a generic music, but watching him at 50 in a WWE ring was quite amazing in its own way. Good match, and Liger doing the selfies was just priceless. Yamada is so great. Cool that they would put him over. Vaudevillains vs Blake & Murphy : someone said earlier in the thread that Alexa Bliss was to her team what Trish was to Test & Albert. Totally agree. I still have no idea who "Blake & Murphy" are supposed to be. Nondescript guys with nondescript names. The Vauds, on the other hand. Well, that shit is awesome, and I like the fact the announcers (who aren't good, but well, at least they made a nice point there) said they actually were some hipsters, and not guys from the 20's. COme on, you know that's what would have happened 20 years ago. Anyway, Gotch is terrific. Nice little match, but I really didn't care at all for that Blue Pants deal, and the girls interaction lacked timing big time. I still like Alexa quite a bit. Corbin vs Samoa Joe : snoozefest. I don't see shit in Corbin. He's got nothing interesting. Joe looked at times really gased out and sloppy, and really kicking ass at others. No idea if he can still go but this certainly wasn't it. Appolo Crews vs Dillinger. No idea who these guys are, I understand Crews comes from ROh or something ? Anyway, cool athletic and power spots, so he's a guy that would fit right in LU too. Fun semi-squash. Sasha vs Bailey. Well, I'll get back to this since it was the unofficial main-event. Balor vs Owens. I thought it was excellent, if not more. And I'm tired of ladder matches. I liked the fact Balor spent less time doing his intro, who can get grating. Actually the music doesn't fit his character to me, but anyway. Thought Owens was terrific and that this smoked all the overrated Cena matches. I really liked Balor too, working at the right pace, and cringed for his ankle each time he did his footstomp spot (I injured my right ankle two weeks ago, jeez, I cringed and cringed each time he landed on Owens and sold afterward). Ok. So. I thought Sasha vs Bailey was a terrific match. Despite some execution issues, especially on Bailey's part. And two or three spots looking awkward because they demand too much cooperation, Psychosis-circa-96 style, or just asks for the reciever to act stupid (I don't see why Bailey couldn't remove her hands from the steps). But, in term of building drama and working toward an epic finish (I didn't say self-epic), with so many moments of pure badasserie (neologism) mostly on the heeling part, with an actual simple storyline developping (the injured hand), yeah, it was still the MOTN, and yeah, in term of the whole being better than the sum of its part, I thought it was terrific. Was that a *great prowresling match* technically speaking ? Not sure, especially since we know these matches are deeply rehearsed. But who cares at this point ? Randy Savage and DDP were doing the same thing years ago, and they won. That's how things are done in the 21st century. So. MOTYC ? I dunno. Great match ? Not even sure (also at least excellent or ****, if that's what you're aiming for). But it's moments like that making me think that pro-wrestling can be great. And another thing. There was this whole boring, pseudo-intellectual debate somewhere about context mattering or not elsewhere. Ok. I don't watch NXT TV. I have zero attachment to Bailey, and as a heel fan who enjoy sexy biches from hell like Mima Shimoda and Oz I would cheer for Sasha anyway if I did follow the show. Yet, and despite me just getting a kick out of every great stuff Banks was doing in the match, toward the end, I got to the point I really wanted Bailey to win, and actually felt good about her winning. So yeah. Context my ass. That's exactly when pro-wrestling is great, when you don't need the context (which can never get to complex anyway, let's be serious). No context, no emotionnal attachment or familiarity with Bailey's character, loving the *work* of Sasha, yet in the end, was legit happy the babyface won. That's how it's supposed to be. That's why it was great too. About the "curtain call" hommage at the end, I thought it was both stupid (from a booking standpoint for the characters) and cool (for those girls as human beings) Like the original one I guess. But I really wonder what they will do with Sasha on Raw. This girl is a star, there's no two ways about it. Stomping on the hand while Bailey was reaching for the rope had me legit marking out. Steph should go fuck herself for still trying to steal these girl's heat. The announcing is dull as fuck. I have no idea who is who, it's like listening to three Micheal Cole. Matt Striker can be annoying, but at least he's got some personnality. Well, of course it's still better than the WWE announcing with the annoying JBL and the almost dead Lawler. I don't think I enjoyed a WWE show "as it happened" as much since... let's see... SummerSlam 98. Yep. The two main events were just a terrific 1-2 punch, Liger was a treat, the Vaudevillians winning was cool, Appolo's debut was fun. And yeah, the show looked way fresher than any WWE stuff. Still needs some work (announcing and shit like that), but I may get to watch the TV for the new season. This must have been way fun live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Wrong thread Will. Don't spoil SummerSlam for me. (watching it tomorrow night, spoiler free, but I get the feeling it could be a long-ass time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 You getting the Bayley thing IS you getting the context, dummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 You getting the Bayley thing IS you getting the context, dummy. Because the match itself was telling me enough that I didn't need to know anything more to get engaged, basically. So it totally worked as watched in a vaacum. That's the mark of a great match too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Further reading on main event vs. co-main event stuff here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21294-hoganundertaker-question/?p=5570789 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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