Dave Meltzer stuff

[KawadaSmile]

I always thought that in-ring, they've been at least good for forever. Sure their gimmick could be a little bit grating after a while, but they've been mass producing classics for 5 years.

 

The gimmick change in 2016 was one of the best I've EVER seen in wrestling. It's like Rocky Maivia turning into The Rock. They became the coolest guys ever almost literally overnight.

[El-P]

The gimmick change in 2016 was one of the best I've EVER seen in wrestling. It's like Rocky Maivia turning into The Rock.

 

Come on now. They went from cartoony Fluokids Samoans to the Samoan Gangsta Party Redux. They are an excellent (maybe great, I wouldn't pronounce myself to that extent) in-ring team, but let's not get carried away either as they aren't as good or better as characters than their dad and uncle (I was a Head Shrinkers mark). Their heel turn in term of presentation evoques more of the Godwinns-turning-heel to me (as in, from one cartoon to another)... The pendulum effect is already looming here.

[Coffey]

I think they're clearly superior to the Headshrinkers in pretty much every measurable way. Promo, in-ring work & character work.

[El-P]

In-ring work maybe, and that's debatable since the Shrinkers weren't exactly working in the workrate-friendly environnement the WWE is today.

 

Promo, well, the Shrinkers didn't cut promos, they would grunt. Which was more effective than most of current pre-written material, really.

 

"Character work" is a term I can't stand so I won't go there, but let's say the Shrinkers, despite the funky savage gimmick, looked like two guys who would legit chop your head off (the image of that Samu clothesline at Mania 9 remains stuck in my head forever) while the Usos look like two college guys cosplaying gangstas. Kinda like Mob Deep, when you think about it. But not as great as Mob Deep.

 

But hey, like I said, I like the Usos, heels or faces, a lot. I do think the New Day gets a bits shortchanged in the pimping of their matches together though. Big E. is the law.

[shodate]

are they a crush gals levels tv ratings draw i mean in the us im compare ot what the Gals were in japan?

 

yes i know us and japanese tv ratings work differently but Japanese ones are more simple its done has % of total population so i wil use the Japanese system iwich is more simple

 

so are the uso capable of drawing a 10.00 or even 5,00

 

in ring style wise ie realism Technique execution and work rate are they as good as say a Misawa /Kobashi like team im sorry bt i just od not see it

[Beast]

Usos are strong now, but in general are quantity over quality.

 

Who would even guess they've been the longest-running tag team in WWF/E history? Their run has been mostly unmemorable prior to their recent heel turn. Even then, I'd never place their series with the New Day at the top of a match/feud list because the matches don't mean anything and feel like they've been going on forever. They are very good matches though, I agree.

 

I have a feeling the Usos are going to be the Cena of the PTBN Tag list where they'll finish top 20, maybe even top 10 or 5 and people will complain that they're under-ranked.

[ShittyLittleBoots]

I think Bucks had at least 10 times better year than The Usos did, at least in ring quality wise. Always been a fan of The Usos & they delivered some bangers last year (that SummerSlam tag vs. New Day was so great), but for every great match that The Usos had, The Bucks had 10 more. Can't deny the promo work by The Usos though, they were KILLING it.

Thatcher & WALTER were the best tag team of 2017 anyways

[Matt D]

So I don't see EVERY tag team match on PPV and certainly not on TV but my impression is that the current WWE tag style peaked back during the Shield/Rhodes Brothers year, and it's just been greater and greater escalation since then. It's hallmark is that 2/3rds of the match is the finishing stretch with endless near-falls/break-ups and momentum shifts within that action-packed period. But again, I haven't seen enough to be sure about this. It's just a gut feeling. The Usos have had a lot of good/exciting matches within that formula, but it's not at all my favorite sort of tag match.

[FMKK]

So I don't see EVERY tag team match on PPV and certainly not on TV but my impression is that the current WWE tag style peaked back during the Shield/Rhodes Brothers year, and it's just been greater and greater escalation since then. It's hallmark is that 2/3rds of the match is the finishing stretch with endless near-falls/break-ups and momentum shifts within that action-packed period. But again, I haven't seen enough to be sure about this. It's just a gut feeling. The Usos have had a lot of good/exciting matches within that formula, but it's not at all my favorite sort of tag match.

The Summerslam match vs New Day was a high end version of that formula but I think the Hell in a Cell vs New Day is worth checking out as something that goes beyond it and increases the violence for WWE 2017 standards. It's an incredible match.

[El-P]

Usos are strong now, but in general are quantity over quality.

 

Who would even guess they've been the longest-running tag team in WWF/E history? Their run has been mostly unmemorable prior to their recent heel turn. Even then, I'd never place their series with the New Day at the top of a match/feud list because the matches don't mean anything and feel like they've been going on forever. They are very good matches though, I agree.

 

That's a real problem since the monopoly days because the same guys stay in the company forever (Randy Orton is only 37, he's been there non-stop for almost 15 years. Compare how long Dolph Ziggler has been on TV with Owen or Perfect for instance) and it gives a distorted perspective on a lot of workers of this era.

 

 

The Summerslam match vs New Day was a high end version of that formula but I think the Hell in a Cell vs New Day is worth checking out as something that goes beyond it and increases the violence for WWE 2017 standards. It's an incredible match.

 

Agreed. This is the one really unique and memorable Usos vs New Day match. If they had one match that I can legitimately call a classic, it's the one.

[C.S.]

The Headshinkers smoke the Usos as characters and it's not even close.

 

What are The Usos supposed to be exactly? Gangsta brothers? Hip hop Samoans? Guys who shout "Uce!" randomly for no reason?

 

Whereas, you knew exactly who and what The Headshrinkers were. Simpler is better.

 

In-ring, it was a different time, but I'd put The Headshrinkers vs. The Steiners up with any Usos match if you're willing to realize there were different styles and constraints between eras.

 

Promos, come on! Headshrinkers were forced in a box, played the typical "savage" Samoan stereotype of the era, and did it very well.

 

Longevity obviously goes to The Usos. Did we ever find out why Samu left so suddenly and had to be replaced by the miscast Sionne (Barbarian)? That version of The Headshrinkers was a colossal waste of time.

 

Overall, The Usos are a very good team and certainly doing their family legacy proud.

[Jmare007]

I get the Bucks winning and even though I haven't seen much of the Usos in the past year, they always delivered when I was watching.

 

But man, what's really criminal about the tag team voting is that once again Strong BJ got nothing after a really good year. I'm still pissed the match against Akiyama & Omori didn't happen because Yuji got injured

[shodate]

The Headshinkers smoke the Usos as characters and it's not even close.

 

What are The Usos supposed to be exactly? Gangsta brothers? Hip hop Samoans? Guys who shout "Uce!" randomly for no reason?

 

Whereas, you knew exactly who and what The Headshrinkers were. Simpler is better.

 

In-ring, it was a different time, but I'd put The Headshrinkers vs. The Steiners up with any Usos match if you're willing to realize there were different styles and constraints between eras.

 

Promos, come on! Headshrinkers were forced in a box, played the typical "savage" Samoan stereotype of the era, and did it very well.

 

Longevity obviously goes to The Usos. Did we ever find out why Samu left so suddenly and had to be replaced by the miscast Sionne (Barbarian)? That version of The Headshrinkers was a colossal waste of time.

 

Overall, The Usos are a very good team and certainly doing their family legacy proud.

the whole its a different time idea is stupid hence why my rating system is full proof more so than the system say people like parv and alot fo others on this site use base on the GWE pods iv listen to and iv Listen to all of them

 

good art and good wrestling is time less

[Beast]

I've been curious, why are all your posts formatted that way, lowercase and weird spacing?

[shodate]

I've been curious, why are all your posts formatted that way, lowercase and weird spacing?

 

my native language does not really have spacing system and or a system of capitalization at all minus that i like you to comment on what on what i write now how i do would be nice

[Matt D]

Maybe we should take a second on timelessness actually. I was having a talk with Loss earlier and as part of the tweets over the last few days, he pointed out to me that Dave said this:

 

"First time I saw them in PWG I realized they had excellent psychology and that was years ago. But I'm a lot more open minded on that, in that I was taught by Terry Funk you play to your audience on that night, not adhere to specific rules. -- Dave on the Young Bucks"

 

Loss wasn't taking a position on it, but he knew it was something that would interest me. We went around with it a bit (including talking about burning out crowds or leading crowds/killing the golden goose/creating unsustainable escalation) but where I ended up was with this:

 

"I also think we criticize art in different ways than it was intended often. I imagine portrait artists in the 1600s were very focused on pleasing their audience. We don't judge their art on how big a commission they got or how happy their patrons were, do we?"

There are interactive elements in wrestling but I think, in general, it's the notion I stick to. I think it's possible to judge wrestling (even specific matches) on how successful they were financially, on how successful they were for the crowd that they were in front of, AND for some general, comparative artistic value. You can rate/judge/compare/criticize wrestling on any of those axes. It's fine so long as you admit what you're doing and try to admit your biases.

It's when people start to argue with one another across those lines that you get the unsolvable problems.

[shodate]

 

Maybe we should take a second on timelessness actually. I was having a talk with Loss earlier and as part of the tweets over the last few days, he pointed out to me that Dave said this:

 

"First time I saw them in PWG I realized they had excellent psychology and that was years ago. But I'm a lot more open minded on that, in that I was taught by Terry Funk you play to your audience on that night, not adhere to specific rules. -- Dave on the Young Bucks"

 

He wasn't taking a position on it, but he knew it was something that would interest me. We went around with it a bit (including talking about burning out crowds or leading crowds/killing the golden goose/creating unsustainable escalation) but where I ended up was with this:

 

"I also think we criticize art in different ways than it was intended often. I imagine portrait artists in the 1600s were very focused on pleasing their audience. We don't judge their art on how big a commission they got or how happy their patrons were, do we?"

There are interactive elements in wrestling but I think, in general, it's the notion I stick to. I think it's possible to judge wrestling (even specific matches) on how successful they were financially, on how successful they were for the crowd that they were in front of, AND for some general, comparative artistic value. You can rate/judge/compare/criticize wrestling on any of those axes. It's fine so long as you admit what you're doing and try to admit your biases.

It's when people start to argue with one another across those lines that you get the unsolvable problems.

 

 

my system as no biases i judge on what every person watching eyes can see if wrestling was audio-based art like Music i would say use audio elements to judge i Judge workers based on what i can see and what most people can see even if they do not wish to do so stuff like realism

[Grimmas]

Every judging system on an art has bias, don't try to pretend you some how superior and you are bias free.

 

Plus if you think Usos suck, your system doesn't sound very good to me.

[shodate]

Every judging system on an art has bias, don't try to pretend you some how superior and you are bias free.

 

Plus if you think Usos suck, your system doesn't sound very good to me.

I never said they suck not once i said based on what i have seen of them there as good as people say

 

read my system all my system is based on observable things ie not Something Intangible Like Realism and execution of the offence and technique and technical skill visibly tangible things i also Judge matches based upon this system

 

hence why i have nuclear heat in some other places based on my view of some famous matches in other places iv done topics on comparing and ratings famous workers using my system Russohiiles[ people who think like russo] hate me

[Edwin]

my system as no biases i judge on what every person watching eyes can see if wrestling was audio-based art like Music i would say use audio elements to judge i Judge workers based on what i can see and what most people can see even if they do not wish to do so stuff like realism

My biggest gripe with this realism narrative is that a simple Irish whip pretty much kills any sense of realism.

[shodate]

 

my system as no biases i judge on what every person watching eyes can see if wrestling was audio-based art like Music i would say use audio elements to judge i Judge workers based on what i can see and what most people can see even if they do not wish to do so stuff like realism

My biggest gripe with this realism narrative is that a simple Irish whip pretty much kills any sense of realism.

 

im talking about realism in mat work or strikes ie stuff you would see in a real fight

[Edwin]

 

 

my system as no biases i judge on what every person watching eyes can see if wrestling was audio-based art like Music i would say use audio elements to judge i Judge workers based on what i can see and what most people can see even if they do not wish to do so stuff like realism

My biggest gripe with this realism narrative is that a simple Irish whip pretty much kills any sense of realism.

 

im talking about realism in mat work or strikes ie stuff you would see in a real fight

 

Even then, there's a lot of matwork in pro-wrestling that obviously doesn't work/wouldn't work in a real fight.

 

That reminds of this clip from JRE:

 

 

If you stick to that narrative, then not even shoot style would work for you as a lot of the matwork in shoot style doesn't make sense, is poorly executed, etc.

[Matt D]

Realism doesn't matter anyway. Symbolic consistency does.

[Ricky Jackson]

I guess I prefer my wrestling to be Romantic

[shodate]

 

 

 

my system as no biases i judge on what every person watching eyes can see if wrestling was audio-based art like Music i would say use audio elements to judge i Judge workers based on what i can see and what most people can see even if they do not wish to do so stuff like realism

My biggest gripe with this realism narrative is that a simple Irish whip pretty much kills any sense of realism.

 

im talking about realism in mat work or strikes ie stuff you would see in a real fight

 

Even then, there's a lot of matwork in pro-wrestling that obviously doesn't work/wouldn't work in a real fight.

 

That reminds of this clip from JRE:

 

 

If you stick to that narrative, then not even shoot style would work for you as a lot of the matwork in shoot style doesn't make sense, is poorly executed, etc.

 

Volk han trained fedor the best MMA Fighter ever make sense is different to looking realistic

 

who has better mat work[ie more realistic mat work bret hart or Volk han who has better more realtisc looking/feeling strikes someone like a Kansai or some like a Trish note picked trish becuase one of her finishes is a Kick who has better ie more realistic mat work benoit or tamura

 

what looks more reailisc benot vs angle or han vs Tamura

 

im talking about opt the untained eye

 

 

why i like realism so much 2 two fold

 

1 im wrestling fan who as trained in Sambo Judo and Jujutsu and Karate

2 since it for help for me to bye into the work

 

when it comes ot strikes in the mainstme promotion like wwe wcw and like even all Japan in the golden times New japan was better at this but srtikeing techqinue was shit good techqiniue is good to making a worked strike look real sekking i has nothing ot do with it selling a week looking strike one with poor technique makesa worker look week

 

my main isuue with HBK is that too and with superkick in general [ super kicks are just basic side trust kick] toany one in and Strike based art do you lean out of your kicks ie pull the y will point and laugh any one who ever sold the sweet chin muisc looked week as shit

 

stuff like aja's uraken or Nakajima r15 have good techinque so look more realistic even if its pulled strike this was why i will never rate rock austin or hbk as top level workers vander on the other hand is in my [my top 300 at around 250 why because of tthe simple fact the camera help cover his poor technique ot make his punches feel real so earer fir me to buy as real

 

Dunns camera work never helped HBKs either cuase it showed you how much he leaned out pulling and leaning are two very different thing some pulling is needed in a work leaning out is bad technique

 

this is also why i think ronda should not need ot be trained cuase volk was never and look at how good he was