Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Matt D]

I think Jericho deserves credit for having ambition and having a strong pride in the art (and it was that) he was trying to create, even while deep within the WWE system. He continued to push up against the limits put against him. When it worked, it worked very well. Often times, he wasn't able to reach the heights that he had percolating in his own mind, but he was in an environment where others didn't even try, and where those who wanted to try, didn't have the gumption and passion to make that trying become reality. Even when it didn't work, you could see that he cared and that he cared despite the life-sucking corporate product he was a part of. I do appreciate that.

 

We were praising Tito a few pages ago for being the best at the basics. Jericho continued to try to push past his limits. That's how someone and something, in this case, WWE wrestling, grows. I wonder how much of the end product we had in 2013, the one with Punk and Bryan and Cesaro and what not, directly stems from Jericho's attempts to push past his boundaries, as successful or unsuccessful as they were. I wonder how much it would have been harder to see as a realization without him. He shot high, with dubious aim, and he failed a lot, but you can't question the fact that he shot high even when the odds were against him and it would have been well within his best interests to shoot low and accept the status quo.

[WingedEagle]

Sami Zayn didn't have a great match with Styles either, but I'll note how quiet people have been about that.

 

Very much this. Zayn has looked awfully mediocre on the main roster. I haven't been of Jericho's work with Styles, but didn't expect a ton out of it based on what Jericho has done of late. The Zayn match was a much bigger disappointment, which seems to be something that comes to mind with a lot of his matches lately.

[Loss]

I actually thought it was a pretty solid match, probably a step better than the Jericho match in January. But not at the level I hoped. Still, I am just trying to encourage people to be self aware of their biases -- not even discard them, but acknowledge them. It's cool to rag on Jericho, and lately, it's deserved. It's not cool to rag on Sami Zayn, but by the same standard, it's only fair.

[DR Ackermann]

I don't think Hogan is one of the 100 greatest wrestlers ever, but I do think he's better than some people above him on the list.

 

Atlantis probably should have been on my ballot, but I think people tend to overrate him a bit and I am not a fan of some of his more high-profile apuestas matches. They are good, but very repetitive and I don't think they would get the same praise if the same matches were done somewhere else by someone else.

 

Jericho is maybe the first guy on the list that I think built his resume on god-awful performances in the 90s where he was praised for fucking up athletic spots that were out of his range. I actually think he's the worst guy to pop up in the top 100 so far except for maybe Dusty. But Dusty knew his limitations and didn't try to play to them like Jericho has.

 

Sami Zayn is a GOOD wrestler but not top 100 GREAT. I think he's much better as a character and promo, similar to Owens. But he is a much better wrestler than Owens.

[JKWebb]

One thing I will give Jericho is his 2008 run where he pieced together his experience, ring work and ability to carry angles and transformed into a great heel character. It was the first time he didn't feel out of place in the main event and from a personal stand point he was the only modern WWE act I've been swept up and invested in (outside the shield).

 

Outside of that though I've never really rated him. Even in his early WWF run he came across as a lame-mo Rock. And the rock was pretty lame.

His feud with Michaels in 2008 is probably my favorite thing he's done...

[Matt D]

My feeling with Jericho is that he broke down doors.

I just kind of think he did so the Shockmaster way.

[Goodear]

I would agree that Jericho can overreach mentally but I think its better to do that and create a role for himself rather than work like CM Punk and have to fall back on winning 'cause' when he isn't big, fast, strong or have any sort of physical advantage over most opponents. His counter wrestling psychology probably works better when up against guys who have been around for a while like Rey Mysterio than newcomers but it at least indicates he scouts his opponents in a kayfabe perspective. I would give him credit for trying something new and unique, even if he doesn't execute it perfectly. It's at least ambitious.

[Childs]

I'm not clear how he broke down doors. Did he do anything that Bret or Shawn or Benoit or Eddie or Angle didn't do?

 

I don't think Jericho was awful by any means, and Loss' arguments for him ring true to me intellectually. But I have never felt swept away by a Jericho match. Well, maybe the Rey matches, but almost never. I'm always very aware with him that I'm watching a guy giving a wrestling performance. His obsession with counters is part of that as is the disconnect between his ambition and his athleticism. I'd make some of the same criticisms about Punk, but Punk had more great matches.

[Matt D]

I think there was something more referential with Jericho than Michaels, Angle, and even Benoit. Though I'm shakiest on the last one. Jericho was obviously a tape watcher and a fan and that defined the narratives that he wanted to tell. Benoit was a big Dynamite Kid fan but he comes off as more developed internally within himself.

 

It feels that Jericho was doing something different than the others, for good or ill, but I'm not sure I can well define that further right now. It's a new thought to me.

 

The question, I guess, is how far "at least ambitious" takes you against someone like Tito, for instance. I don't necessarily have an answer for that. Both of them have great matches and great feuds. Both of them have a strong philosophy of what wrestling should be. It's an interesting comparison to me.

[tim]

Sami Zayn didn't have a great match with Styles either, but I'll note how quiet people have been about that.

I thought it was pretty great and significantly better than any of the Jericho matches.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I am shocked Angle is finishing ahead of all these people. Crazy.

[Loss]

I'm not clear how he broke down doors. Did he do anything that Bret or Shawn or Benoit or Eddie or Angle didn't do?

 

I don't think Jericho was awful by any means, and Loss' arguments for him ring true to me intellectually. But I have never felt swept away by a Jericho match. Well, maybe the Rey matches, but almost never. I'm always very aware with him that I'm watching a guy giving a wrestling performance. His obsession with counters is part of that as is the disconnect between his ambition and his athleticism. I'd make some of the same criticisms about Punk, but Punk had more great matches.

 

This is interesting because I think Jericho's greatest weakness may be working matches where the goal is for *him* to come out of it looking like a million bucks. That's not because of some idealistic selflessness or anything like that. But I think he can accomplish "We want people to love this match" or "We want this other guy to seem like he's ready for the next level" really well. But "We want you to look like a million bucks"? Ain't happening.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

 

A well-deserved spot in the top 75 for Jericho. His good to great work in multiple regions earned him a spot in WCW. While at WCW, Jericho rose above all the shit in that promotion and made a name for himself. Became a legit star in WWE who has dropped off lately, but still knows how to work.

Does he? He's taken the best wrestler in the world and made him just decent.

 

I thought his work with Styles has been good. Not MOTY, but good. It's the booking that people seem to have a problem with.

[The Man in Blak]

For those that would position Jericho's late WWE work as being ambitious -- how is it different from other upper-card matches in modern WWE?

[Matt D]

My argument isn't that the late stuff is ambitious but that the earlier stuff being ambitious may have led to elements of the style of upper-card matches in modern WWE. But I honestly don't know. I'd like people to poke at that a bit more.

[Cox]

I actually thought it was a pretty solid match, probably a step better than the Jericho match in January. But not at the level I hoped. Still, I am just trying to encourage people to be self aware of their biases -- not even discard them, but acknowledge them. It's cool to rag on Jericho, and lately, it's deserved. It's not cool to rag on Sami Zayn, but by the same standard, it's only fair.

I wonder how much of that may be because the WWE agents don't know exactly how to lay out a Zayn match (or a Styles match, for that matter) yet. He's only been on the main roster for a few weeks and I'm sure it's an adjustment for both Zayn and the agents to figure out how to make matches work. I think we've seen enough guys struggle with the adjustment to the main roster in the past to where a "wait and see" attitude for Zayn may be in order.

 

And I wonder if that is why Jericho worked with Styles first when he was signed, since Jericho was really one of the last guys to go straight to the main roster from another promotion without time in developmental, and the only guy on the main roster, so he was one of the few people who could work with Styles and help him transition from a guy who worked one way in TNA and Japan, to the much different house WWE style.

[Goodear]

Its ambitious in that Jericho is uniquely reactive to his opponent. The strength of WWE style is its tier system where Mark Henry is stronger than John Cena who is stronger than Christian who is stronger than Rey Mysterio. So when Mark manages to catch Rey and do what he does, he is likely to win the match. If Rey can do what he does, he is likely to win. Jericho lacks physical tools for the most part where he can exert that advantage in many situations. On the 10 point scale of attributes, he's a 3-4 in all of them. So in addition to doing his spots, he routinely counters other people's spots. So he is less likely to eat three shoulder blocks, throw a punch and get caught in the protoplex. It requires not only a knowledge of what he does, but what everyone else does as well. He doesn't always pull it off, obviously.

[Beast]

If Jericho knew about this list, I bet he'd think he's way under ranked.

 

He was my 71 so I think this is about right.

[anarchistxx]

AJ Styles is the best worker in the world all of a sudden?

 

The matches were fairly unmemorable and Jericho was typically sloppy, but they were still some of the more interesting things on the card. And the storyline was really well written as were the promos - supposedly by Y2J himself. Actually had me invested in the match, which is a rarity in this era of WWE where they churn out solid matches week after week without a solitary fuck given because there is no reason to care. At least they weren't just pointless indie workrate matches and actually had some direction.

[Childs]

AJ Styles is the best worker in the world all of a sudden?

 

He was widely regarded as such in 2014 and 2015. If not the best, certainly one of the top five.

[anarchistxx]

I'm out of the loop. Her certainly never used to be pimped on that level. His haircut alone precludes him from taking the title at the minute surely.

[goodhelmet]

I"ll be interested to see how AJ vs. Reigns plays out in a couple of weeks. The same people criticizing Jericho have been pimping Reigns so no excuses for AJ this time around.

 

Anyway, here is a rundown of the guys in the Top 100 that have been knocked out so far...

 

1. Daisuke Ikeda

2. Atlantis

3. Kerry Von Erich

4. Ron Garvin

5. Sangre Chicana

6. Bob Backlund

7. 2 Cold Scorpio

8. Terry Gordy

9. Tito Santana

10. Chris Jericho

11. Dr. Death

12. Tajiri

13. L.A. Park

14. Cesaro

[Jetlag]

My request for the 2026 countdown is that we get 3 pages of discussion about Otto Wanz and Alan Kilby.

[Goodear]

Alan Kilby, what a jerk!

[Lee Casebolt]

Honestly I feel this entire batch was people where even if they aren't where I had them it's really easy to agree with their ranking based on a certain point of view and there's nothing mysterious there. All of these feel like fairly sensible choices from the kind of people that would vote for them.

 

You know who is quietly going to finish really well? Dustin Rhodes.

 

If the middle of Dustin's career had been as good as the beginning and the end, I think we'd be talking about him as a Top Ten guy. As it is, anywhere in the middle 50 wouldn't surprise me.