Dave Meltzer stuff

[sek69]

Obviously a sack of doorknobs is going to be a huge PPV draw opposite Floyd, but hasn't Conor been the clear #1 draw in UFC for a while? It's not like that was the only big gate he was part of.

[Eduardo]

Yeah McGregor has drawn very impressively in the UFC and is the clear top draw there. In the Twitter arguments that Meltzer is involved in, he's using figures based on his fight with Mayweather Jr. without mentioning how McGregor was the b-side to that monster buyrate.

[fxnj]

Let's not pretend Floyd could have drawn 4m buys against any random chump. His "retirement" fight against Berto only did 400k buys. McGregor's fights with Aldo and Diaz also outdrew every fight Floyd ever had with the exception of the Pac, Canelo, and DLH fights, and Diaz and Aldo are nowhere near the stars of any of those guys. These are all numbers Cena and WWE can only dream of. People are confusing name recognition with ability to make money, which is the main thing Meltz is concerned with when he talks about drawing and popularity. If he keeps fighting at a high level in MMA and does a few more freakshow boxing matches, McGregor is on track to being the biggest money maker in combat sports history.

[Loss]

I won't deny his ability to draw. It's right there, and if Dave is just arguing that and nothing more, so be it. If he's arguing being known outside the bubble, I'm pretty sure John Cena fits that description, primarily based on my own anecdotal experiences, but also just based on Cena's greater visibility on projects outside of WWE.

[Edwin]

In no galaxy is Conor McGregor a bigger star than John Cena - I don't care how much money they make.

 

McGregor will be a footnote, a mere blip, in five years. (Don't believe me? Look how fast Ronda cooled off.) Meanwhile, Cena will continue to be Big Match John and appear in blockbuster Hollywood movies.

You couldn't be anymore wrong than you are.

 

Ronda at her peak was nowhere near Conor, so comparing them is horrible. Also Conor is an entirely different fighter than Ronda. Ronda brought into her own hype and that's why she got wrecked. Conor on the other hand is a smarter fighter and picks fights carefully. That's why he avoids taking certain fights. He knows who he matches up with better stylistically and he also knows who he can draw the most money with.

 

He also got choked out by Nate Diaz and TKO'd by Floyd Mayweather Jr. and if anything those 2 loses made him a bigger star than he already was. That pretty much disproves you're argument.

 

Also lol at implying that Cena's rise to popularity has anything to do with Big Match John and not because he's extremely charismatic and marketable. I'm sure whenever he's being considered for movie roles the producers and writers are thinking "Jeee, hopefully we can get Big Match John to show up."

[Eduardo]

Funny that in 2017 Dave Meltzer is being accused of being a hater of Ric Flair on Twitter. Maybe he could have articulated certain things better and not blown up at random people on Twitter but I also understand his definition of a pop culture icon doesn't include Flair, and I don't get why people are so upset and defensive about this particular take.

[Dooley]

The idea that John Cena is a bigger star than Conor McGregor is quite possibly the silliest thing I've seen on the internet in 2017. Think of the ground that covers. How deep in the wrestling bubble can one be?

 

Conor just competed in one of the biggest money fights of all time. It dwarfed any of Floyd's numbers against anyone except Pacquiao. He's on the cover of GQ. TMZ covers him like he's a fucking Kardashian. John Cena is the biggest name in wrestling and to most people on the street, he still may only get a passing recognition as "oh yeah, he's the wrestler".

[WingedEagle]

The idea that John Cena is a bigger star than Conor McGregor is quite possibly the silliest thing I've seen on the internet in 2017. Think of the ground that covers. How deep in the wrestling bubble can one be?

 

Conor just competed in one of the biggest money fights of all time. It dwarfed any of Floyd's numbers against anyone except Pacquiao. He's on the cover of GQ. TMZ covers him like he's a fucking Kardashian. John Cena is the biggest name in wrestling and to most people on the street, he still may only get a passing recognition as "oh yeah, he's the wrestler".

 

Not everything is that simple or necessarily silly. It depends how one defines star. Is it drawing dollars via their commercial endeavors? If so, Conor takes that matchup in a rout. But if you put Cena and Conor on TV next to Kelly Ripa, its very likely that a greater number of non-fans -- my wife, mom, coworkers, etc -- would recognize Cena if not outright know who he is. That doesn't mean his next match will outdraw Conor's. But it may very well mean he is a bigger star and has more of a public profile by some measures. What's so controversial about that?

[KB8]

I can't speak for the rest of the UK or Ireland, but in Scotland right now, it's almost certainly Conor if you're asking non-fans who they're more likely to be aware of. My barometer for this sort of thing (it may be a flawed system, admittedly) is my retired uncle, who basically does nothing but fix cars, watch fishing programmes and drink beer, and even he knows who Conor McGregor is.

 

Conor is more recognised by non-MMA/wrestling fans here than pretty much anyone I can think of in my lifetime (beyond the obvious like Hogan, Rock, etc). Or maybe I just associate with too many people who spend their time drinking beer and watching fishing programmes.

[Mad Dog]

 

In no galaxy is Conor McGregor a bigger star than John Cena - I don't care how much money they make.

 

McGregor will be a footnote, a mere blip, in five years. (Don't believe me? Look how fast Ronda cooled off.) Meanwhile, Cena will continue to be Big Match John and appear in blockbuster Hollywood movies.

You couldn't be anymore wrong than you are.

 

Ronda at her peak was nowhere near Conor, so comparing them is horrible. Also Conor is an entirely different fighter than Ronda. Ronda brought into her own hype and that's why she got wrecked. Conor on the other hand is a smarter fighter and picks fights carefully. That's why he avoids taking certain fights. He knows who he matches up with better stylistically and he also knows who he can draw the most money with.

 

He also got choked out by Nate Diaz and TKO'd by Floyd Mayweather Jr. and if anything those 2 loses made him a bigger star than he already was. That pretty much disproves you're argument.

 

Also lol at implying that Cena's rise to popularity has anything to do with Big Match John and not because he's extremely charismatic and marketable. I'm sure whenever he's being considered for movie roles the producers and writers are thinking "Jeee, hopefully we can get Big Match John to show up."

 

 

Ronda was a one dimensional fighter that got exposed and had her aura shattered. Nunes wrecked her and you could see no amount of training was ever going to allow her to even have a prayer of beating her. She was largely a fraud beating up inferior competition that got manhandled when she ran into real fighters. That's heavily simplified but that's essentially what happened to her.

 

As for Connor. MMA always remembers their stars. Chuck Liddell wasn't a blip on the radar. Neither was Mark Coleman, Rampage, Gracie, Fedor or any of the other numerous guys out there. Connor is the biggest star in MMA right now and has been for a couple of years. He's going to be remembered for a long time.

 

With that said, Cena is a bigger star because of the stuff he does outside of wrestling. Most people would know Cena's face vs. knowing his name. It would be like comparing Peyton Manning to Drew Brees in football. Brees might win the Super Bowl this year and your average person wouldn't know him if they saw him on the street but they would recognize the retired Manning because of his commercials.

[Beast]

Let's not overstate Cena's film career just year. The only "hit" he's been in was "Trainwreck" and that was little more than a featured cameo.

 

Hogan is a household name for kids who grew up from about 1985-1995, whether or not they watched wrestling because those who did talked about him all the time. Same with Randy Savage and the Ultimate Warrior.

 

Austin was like that from about 1998-2000, The Rock too, although The Rock eventually became an actual movie star. Even then, he wasn't much more than a 3rd-rate Arnold until the 2010's. It was him joining the Fast & Furious franchise that blew them both into superstardom.

 

Cena is a household name for families with children who watch wrestling, but his outside appearances aren't enough to definitively put him over McGregor yet. Josh Duhamel hosted the Kids Choice Awards too and I guarantee both Cena and McGregor are bigger names than him at the moment.

[C.S.]

 

In no galaxy is Conor McGregor a bigger star than John Cena - I don't care how much money they make.

 

McGregor will be a footnote, a mere blip, in five years. (Don't believe me? Look how fast Ronda cooled off.) Meanwhile, Cena will continue to be Big Match John and appear in blockbuster Hollywood movies.

You couldn't be anymore wrong than you are.

 

Ronda at her peak was nowhere near Conor, so comparing them is horrible. Also Conor is an entirely different fighter than Ronda. Ronda brought into her own hype and that's why she got wrecked. Conor on the other hand is a smarter fighter and picks fights carefully. That's why he avoids taking certain fights. He knows who he matches up with better stylistically and he also knows who he can draw the most money with.

 

He also got choked out by Nate Diaz and TKO'd by Floyd Mayweather Jr. and if anything those 2 loses made him a bigger star than he already was. That pretty much disproves you're argument.

 

Also lol at implying that Cena's rise to popularity has anything to do with Big Match John and not because he's extremely charismatic and marketable. I'm sure whenever he's being considered for movie roles the producers and writers are thinking "Jeee, hopefully we can get Big Match John to show up."

 

 

I love all of the UFC bubble posters and Meltzer acolytes who think I genuinely care about the fighting merits of Ronda Rousey and Conor McGregor - LOL! - or try to argue that it actually matters when it comes to their drawing power. You refuted your own argument by calling Ronda a fraud, secretly a terrible fighter, whatever your point was. Then what was she a drawing card for? Not her crocheting skills, that's for damn sure. It was for her fighting. "Fraud" or not, she had a shelf life in the fighting dept. Even if Conor is a million times better as a fighter, he too has a shelf life.

 

John Cena can wrestle for another 20 years and generate excitement and publicity for WrestleMania, etc. Ronda and McGregor can't fight for another 20. THAT'S my point.

 

(Even if Ronda and McGregor end up in the WWE, as they probably will, don't expect lightning to strike twice. They'll do well, but it will be more on the Ken Shamrock level. Neither of them will become the next Hogan, Rock, or Cena in wrestling.)

 

No, Ron Howard and Molly Ringwald are not going to care about "Big Match John" when it comes to casting their next secret project, but Cena's wrestling base will.

 

Wrestling may be even more of a niche than UFC, but let's not act like there aren't millions of wrestling fans out there still. Hollywood obviously dwarfs wrestling (and UFC), but that doesn't mean wrestling publicity isn't important too.

 

Both Rock and Cena used wrestling as a springboard to become successful movie stars. Their Hollywood careers would've been a much different story if they were never wrestlers. Part of Rock's transition from Disney movies (Tooth Fairy, etc.) to badass action star included his WWE comeback. It was all calculated for one thing to feed into the next.

 

Ronda and McGregor aren't going to be able to fight in 20 years and then use that to springboard to something else (Hollywood, etc.). By then, they'll be long gone and forgotten. Whereas, Big Match John could conceivably still be wrestling by then, generating publicity, and keeping himself in the public eye to set up projects outside of wrestling. UFC fighters and people in other sports don't have the same luxury of time.

[Matt D]

Let's not overstate Cena's film career just year. The only "hit" he's been in was "Trainwreck" and that was little more than a featured cameo.

 

Hogan is a household name for kids who grew up from about 1985-1995, whether or not they watched wrestling because those who did talked about him all the time. Same with Randy Savage and the Ultimate Warrior.

 

Austin was like that from about 1998-2000, The Rock too, although The Rock eventually became an actual movie star. Even then, he wasn't much more than a 3rd-rate Arnold until the 2010's. It was him joining the Fast & Furious franchise that blew them both into superstardom.

 

Cena is a household name for families with children who watch wrestling, but his outside appearances aren't enough to definitively put him over McGregor yet. Josh Duhamel hosted the Kids Choice Awards too and I guarantee both Cena and McGregor are bigger names than him at the moment.

I just got back from taking my kid to see Coco today. There was a trailer which had John Cena on screen as himself talking about how he related to Ferdinand with bits of animation interspersed. The whole thing hinged in people knowing who Cena was. Millions of people will likely see this trailer this weekend.

[Beast]

OK, but let's see if Ferdinand does any business.

 

Was it an actual trailer or one of those pre-movie ads where they promote a movie or show with the actors pushing it? Of course, they're going to interview the lead, but it doesn't make the lead a big star.

 

It's opening against Star Wars. If Ferdinand is a smash, then I guess that tells us all something.

[Matt D]

OK, but let's see if Ferdinand does any business.

 

Was it an actual trailer or one of those pre-movie ads where they promote a movie or show with the actors pushing it? Of course, they're going to interview the lead, but it doesn't make the lead a big star.

 

It's opening against Star Wars. If Ferdinand is a smash, then I guess that tells us all something.

I actually think itll do lukewarm business and make a small profit. I dont think Cenas particularly strong in what Ive heard so far either, but it was an actual trailer and not part of Bob Backlund inductor Marias pre-trailers thing so it was striking for this discussion.

[Beast]

Oh, well that's a pretty big gamble on the studios part.

 

All the power to them and Cena if it pays off. I just don't think he's able to carry a film like that yet.

 

Rock had Planet 51 in 2009 that also did lukewarm business. By 2016 he was doing Moana.

[C.S.]

Anything is going to bomb against Star Wars, unfortunately. Ronda, McGregor, and Molly Ringwald would fare no better.

[Matt D]

My point was more that he was so prominently featured on a trailer that so many people are going to see this weekend. It was a recognition argument more than a drawing one.

[sek69]

It was just mentioned in today's WON update that there will be five "acts" (his term, whatever that means) going in to the HOF this year.

[Victator]

You know if Cena lost his mind and did an MMA fight he would draw a lot of money. If CM Punk could do a big buy rate, Cena could do something bigger. He would get killed and has enough sense not to. But it would draw a lot of eyeballs.

[Matt D]

I can't speak for the rest of the UK or Ireland, but in Scotland right now, it's almost certainly Conor if you're asking non-fans who they're more likely to be aware of. My barometer for this sort of thing (it may be a flawed system, admittedly) is my retired uncle, who basically does nothing but fix cars, watch fishing programmes and drink beer, and even he knows who Conor McGregor is.

 

Conor is more recognised by non-MMA/wrestling fans here than pretty much anyone I can think of in my lifetime (beyond the obvious like Hogan, Rock, etc). Or maybe I just associate with too many people who spend their time drinking beer and watching fishing programmes.

Im sure Cena is a bigger name in West Newbury, MA though.

[DMJ]

No way Ferdinand is a smash against Star Wars, but I looked up Blue Sky Animation and 10-out-of-11 of their films have done good business (the Ice Age franchise being the one I recognized most) so this isn't some rinky-dink indie company unaware of how to slice its own piece of the market pie. I couldn't dig up budget #s either, but not buoying themselves with an expensive A-list cast (Bobby Cannavale, Kate McKinnon, and the dude from Broadchurch probably aren't demanding boatloads of cash upfront) could also make a difference between minor and moderate success (ditto for the IP, which probably wasn't too costly compared to, say, a comic book hero or more recent children's literature/teen novel).

 

Much more interesting (to me at least) and much less relevant to this conversation is how Jumanji will do. The movie opens a week earlier and stars The Rock, Jack Black, and Kevin Hart - but from what I've seen in the trailer, doesn't seem to feature any kids...which was kind of the whole premise of the book and the original film. I'm not saying its not a kids movie, but with a PG-13 rating, its kind of not a kids movie. It has star power and if it gets good reviews that could help too, but part of me is wondering if this isn't the same recipe that made Land of the Lost (a surprisingly dirtier film than it was advertised to be) a flop in 2009.

 

Then again, i expected Daddy's Home 2 to bomb hard and was way off on that.

[sek69]

It shouldn't get lost in all the box office jibber jabber that Dave straight up called Ryan Satin an asshole on Twitter today.

[Robert S]

It was just mentioned in today's WON update that there will be five "acts" (his term, whatever that means) going in to the HOF this year.

If he uses the term "act" I would assume that at least a tag team or a trios team made it in.

[sek69]

That's what I was hoping. I really wish this can be the year we finally break the lucha logjam.