Edwin Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 It's really funny how the (US based) MMA hardcore fans hate any sullying of their precious sport with dirty pro wrestling, but it was largely pro wrestlers who started the shoot style groups that kicked off the popularity of MMA in Japan and led to everything today. I think the funnies thing of all of this is the fact that PRIDE had strong ties to pro-wrestling for the majority of its existence, yet a lot of them consider it the greatest MMA organization ever. They love Sakuraba, but ignore the fact that he was a pro-wrestler in an MMA world. I'm a huge fan of both, but I honestly don't get either side taking shots at each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 I think the problem with the generation gap argument is that it assumes that wrestling is always evolving for the better and it ignores the fact that the worldwide pro wrestling audience is significantly smaller right now than it has historically been. Daves point on the Midnight Express is valid to an extent (Cornette would come off far better if he acknowledged that there are obvious similarities between the Bucks and MX). My counterargument would be that MXs athletic spots were generally executed in a less choreographed manner (for lack of a better term), they got over in front of bigger and more varied audiences, and their comedy had a broader slapstick appeal rather than the ironic appeal of a lot of the Bucks comedy spots. Dave seems to be taking the stance that as long as a group of people like a certain style that there is no such thing as taking things too far. Not sure that I buy that. Logic dictates that at some point the old guys complaining about the young kids taking it too far will be right. At some point it goes too far. I am not saying the Young Bucks are that line but I wish Dave and others werent so dismissive of the idea that line exists. I think it is perfectly valid for some fans to view the Midnight Express innovation as generally being positive and viewing the Bucks stuff as a step too far. It is a matter of taste. Likewise, the viewpoint that if the live crowd likes a spot or a match and there is no extra level of danger involved then the spot/match worked ignores the fact that something else could potentially have broader appeal. By its own historical standards, wrestling is not very popular now. ROH and the Bullet Club are still very much niche entities in a relatively small industry. It is good for the Bucks that they have their audience and have been able to grow that audience somewhat, but it is still a small, niche audience. It seems like a slippery slope. This is an extreme example but if a match gets over in front of 50 fans all with the same very specific tastes, does that mean the match worked and the wrestlers did the right thing even if a different type of presentation might have held broader appeal? Satisfying your core audience is better than not appealing to any audience but not sure the reaction of that audience should be the benchmark for what works or doesnt work. I would personally feel ripped off if I paid to see the Young Bucks wrestle and they didn't wrestle a Young Bucks match. Yeah but if you pay to see a Young Bucks match you probably deserve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaveri Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Dave's denied on Twitter that he reported Donald Duck vs. Mickie Mouse was planned for Wrestlemania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 He was responding to someone asking about a cut and paste site claiming he reported Vince was looking to sell WWE to Disney, but I guess that doesn't make for funny jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I think the problem with the generation gap argument is that it assumes that wrestling is always evolving for the better and it ignores the fact that the worldwide pro wrestling audience is significantly smaller right now than it has historically been. Dave’s point on the Midnight Express is valid to an extent (Cornette would come off far better if he acknowledged that there are obvious similarities between the Bucks and MX). My counterargument would be that MX’s athletic spots were generally executed in a less “choreographed” manner (for lack of a better term), they got over in front of bigger and more varied audiences, and their comedy had a broader slapstick appeal rather than the ironic appeal of a lot of the Bucks comedy spots. Dave seems to be taking the stance that as long as a group of people like a certain style that there is no such thing as taking things too far. Not sure that I buy that. Logic dictates that at some point the old guys complaining about the young kids taking it too far will be right. At some point it goes too far. I am not saying the Young Bucks are that line but I wish Dave and others weren’t so dismissive of the idea that line exists. I think it is perfectly valid for some fans to view the Midnight Express’ innovation as generally being positive and viewing the Bucks’ stuff as a step too far. It is a matter of taste. Likewise, the viewpoint that if the live crowd likes a spot or a match and there is no extra level of danger involved then the spot/match “worked” ignores the fact that something else could potentially have broader appeal. By its own historical standards, wrestling is not very popular now. ROH and the Bullet Club are still very much niche entities in a relatively small industry. It is good for the Bucks that they have their audience and have been able to grow that audience somewhat, but it is still a small, niche audience. It seems like a slippery slope. This is an extreme example but if a match gets over in front of 50 fans all with the same very specific tastes, does that mean the match worked and the wrestlers did the right thing even if a different type of presentation might have held broader appeal? Satisfying your core audience is better than not appealing to any audience but not sure the reaction of that audience should be the benchmark for what works or doesn’t work. But that small niche audience is willing to pay premium prices for tickets and merchandise. Is 50 fans paying $100 to watch a match really less impressive than 1000 fans paying $5 to watch one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin' Brian Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I think the problem with the generation gap argument is that it assumes that wrestling is always evolving for the better and it ignores the fact that the worldwide pro wrestling audience is significantly smaller right now than it has historically been. Dave’s point on the Midnight Express is valid to an extent (Cornette would come off far better if he acknowledged that there are obvious similarities between the Bucks and MX). My counterargument would be that MX’s athletic spots were generally executed in a less “choreographed” manner (for lack of a better term), they got over in front of bigger and more varied audiences, and their comedy had a broader slapstick appeal rather than the ironic appeal of a lot of the Bucks comedy spots. Dave seems to be taking the stance that as long as a group of people like a certain style that there is no such thing as taking things too far. Not sure that I buy that. Logic dictates that at some point the old guys complaining about the young kids taking it too far will be right. At some point it goes too far. I am not saying the Young Bucks are that line but I wish Dave and others weren’t so dismissive of the idea that line exists. I think it is perfectly valid for some fans to view the Midnight Express’ innovation as generally being positive and viewing the Bucks’ stuff as a step too far. It is a matter of taste. Likewise, the viewpoint that if the live crowd likes a spot or a match and there is no extra level of danger involved then the spot/match “worked” ignores the fact that something else could potentially have broader appeal. By its own historical standards, wrestling is not very popular now. ROH and the Bullet Club are still very much niche entities in a relatively small industry. It is good for the Bucks that they have their audience and have been able to grow that audience somewhat, but it is still a small, niche audience. It seems like a slippery slope. This is an extreme example but if a match gets over in front of 50 fans all with the same very specific tastes, does that mean the match worked and the wrestlers did the right thing even if a different type of presentation might have held broader appeal? Satisfying your core audience is better than not appealing to any audience but not sure the reaction of that audience should be the benchmark for what works or doesn’t work. But that small niche audience is willing to pay premium prices for tickets and merchandise. Is 50 fans paying $100 to watch a match really less impressive than 1000 fans paying $5 to watch one? Most niche products seem to have gone this way. The best selling comic books used to sell half a million copies, now the best sellers are around the 100,000 copy mark. But most comics now are at least $3 or more, whereas then they were a dollar or less. The publishers are still making the same amount of money or more by charging more to less customers. Guess the problem with that is as your audience keeps dwindling, can you afford to keep raising prices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I thought the Zenk bio was pretty solid this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 Don't mean to pile on but a few weeks ago Dave says there are no plans for a Women's rumble match so of course they announce one tonight. 2017 has been a terrible year for him reporting wise I believe what he said was along the lines of there were no plans set but that could easily change. So not exactly the same sentiment and it's easier to interpret what Dave means when you hear him speak(as challenging it can be at times when he stammers or shuffles his notes) an when you read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 He's talked about it on the audio before, and here is a quote, that I think is originally from Wrestling Classics: "Coleman-Takada was a work. I can tell you that 100% because weeks before the fight I was involved in a discussion regarding how they would work the finish. There's a lot more to this story but people who don't understand Japan, wrestling and the fight business will never get this, but had Takada not been given some bought and paid for wins early on, Pride would have folded long before Sakuraba got hot and turned it into what it turned into. Business was not good those early years and Takada was the only guy over, and people were losing faith in him. He needed a big win at that moment. It's never been an issue in Japan because all they were drawing were pro wrestling fans until probably 2001 anyway, and they understood business is business." He is right though. The only ones who don't understand this are the blind hardcore MMA fans who don't believe there's been a ton of fixed fights in the sport before to begin with. The local Japanese fanbase is very different than the foreign fanbase. If you are an entertaining, charismatic fighter with a ton of personality, a flashy entrance and put on exciting fights, the fans will respect, cheer and support you. That's why there's guys with a ton of losses and possibly losing records getting marquee fights. IIRC he was also supposed to go over Tamura before he got KO'd. I agree with the North American MMA fans being in denial how much Pro Wrestling influenced and contributed to MMA. Also for the earlier comment I thought the Coleman fight looked way faker than the Sturgeon fight but both were awful. The Tamura fight I always heard was supposed to be a carry job with Tamura not going for the finish so soon but Takada fucked up and charged it and got clipped and KO'd. I never heard he was supposed to go over and it'd defeat purpose of him retiring if he beat Tamura who was gonna still be a viable star for PRIDE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 Don't mean to pile on but a few weeks ago Dave says there are no plans for a Women's rumble match so of course they announce one tonight. 2017 has been a terrible year for him reporting wise I believe what he said was along the lines of there were no plans set but that could easily change. So not exactly the same sentiment and it's easier to interpret what Dave means when you hear him speak(as challenging it can be at times when he stammers or shuffles his notes) an when you read it. Dave ALWAYS says plans can change on anything he reports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 He's talked about it on the audio before, and here is a quote, that I think is originally from Wrestling Classics: "Coleman-Takada was a work. I can tell you that 100% because weeks before the fight I was involved in a discussion regarding how they would work the finish. There's a lot more to this story but people who don't understand Japan, wrestling and the fight business will never get this, but had Takada not been given some bought and paid for wins early on, Pride would have folded long before Sakuraba got hot and turned it into what it turned into. Business was not good those early years and Takada was the only guy over, and people were losing faith in him. He needed a big win at that moment. It's never been an issue in Japan because all they were drawing were pro wrestling fans until probably 2001 anyway, and they understood business is business." He is right though. The only ones who don't understand this are the blind hardcore MMA fans who don't believe there's been a ton of fixed fights in the sport before to begin with. The local Japanese fanbase is very different than the foreign fanbase. If you are an entertaining, charismatic fighter with a ton of personality, a flashy entrance and put on exciting fights, the fans will respect, cheer and support you. That's why there's guys with a ton of losses and possibly losing records getting marquee fights. IIRC he was also supposed to go over Tamura before he got KO'd. I agree with the North American MMA fans being in denial how much Pro Wrestling influenced and contributed to MMA. Also for the earlier comment I thought the Coleman fight looked way faker than the Sturgeon fight but both were awful. The Tamura fight I always heard was supposed to be a carry job with Tamura not going for the finish so soon but Takada fucked up and charged it and got clipped and KO'd. I never heard he was supposed to go over and it'd defeat purpose of him retiring if he beat Tamura who was gonna still be a viable star for PRIDE. That Takada - Tamura story makes sense, but I've always heard Takada was supposed to go over, however these stories have never been confirmed. I do know in the PRIDE Secret Files, it was mentioned that Takada was originally going to fight Naoya Ogawa and offers to fight Mirko Cro Cop and Hidehiko Yoshida arrived, but they decided to go with the Tamura fight as they thought it would be a bigger draw due to their past history in UWF-i. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 Don't mean to pile on but a few weeks ago Dave says there are no plans for a Women's rumble match so of course they announce one tonight. 2017 has been a terrible year for him reporting wiseI believe what he said was along the lines of there were no plans set but that could easily change. So not exactly the same sentiment and it's easier to interpret what Dave means when you hear him speak(as challenging it can be at times when he stammers or shuffles his notes) an when you read it. Dave ALWAYS says plans can change on anything he reports I'm not sure how this became a major knock on Dave when history has shown plans do change all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted December 24, 2017 Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/945022608902316033This is the funniest example of Dave doesn't know how to use technology we could realistically hope for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted December 25, 2017 Report Share Posted December 25, 2017 https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/945022608902316033 This is the funniest example of Dave doesn't know how to use technology we could realistically hope for. Between the Juno address (OMG Juno WTF thought it was dead LOL) and asking someone to send him a photo he can easily download himself, it's hilarious. On top of that, isn't that his late dad's e-mail address? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2017 It is, yes. His dad worked for him at one time I think, helping manage subscriptions and shipments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Note in the most recent Observer about oddsmakers placing an over/under on the Tokyo Dome main event being five stars. For anyone with any kind of involvement in journalism, having gambling on their opinions seems like a bad, bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Note in the most recent Observer about oddsmakers placing an over/under on the Tokyo Dome main event being five stars. For anyone with any kind of involvement in journalism, having gambling on their opinions seems like a bad, bad thing. Yeah, strikes me as totally ridiculous on every level, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 I'm really not looking forward to the next round of fights on Twitter with people who only watch WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Don't mean to pile on but a few weeks ago Dave says there are no plans for a Women's rumble match so of course they announce one tonight. 2017 has been a terrible year for him reporting wiseI believe what he said was along the lines of there were no plans set but that could easily change. So not exactly the same sentiment and it's easier to interpret what Dave means when you hear him speak(as challenging it can be at times when he stammers or shuffles his notes) an when you read it. Dave ALWAYS says plans can change on anything he reports I'm not sure how this became a major knock on Dave when history has shown plans do change all the time. It's funny to me because Dave can basically never be wrong. He reports something that eventually happens = he's right. He reports something that doesn't end up happening = planes changed By always saying "I heard this but I don't know/anything can happen/plans change" he leaves room for any bad info he can get to be chalked up to last minute changes, it's genius and hilarious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 About Taker's finances "may be not the best" (and him coming back at Mania for a payday again) : "Unless you have 10 million $ in the bank, you're always gonna worry about your finances." WTF ? Give me a single million and I'm so done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 I would actually agree with him on this one. While one million dollars is indeed a good ammount of money, there are some places that have ridiculously high costs for basically everything, and considering how few wrestlers know how to manage their finances (JBL and Sting are the ones that come to mind), 10 million seem like the minimum for the mind to be at ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Yeah, they need to live in palaces and shit in golden toilets... Reminds me the very few times I saw that stupid reality show with the Bellas and how I was appaled by the lifestyle of John Cena. I wouldn't trade my place with his, really. Who needs all that shit ? Anyway. It struck me as a completely inane remark from Meltz that wasn't wrestling related, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Are we sure those are their real homes on Total Divas though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaveri Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Dave's still really vague on why Velveteen Dream has disappeared off the face of the earth since the Aleister Black match. Apparently he "hasn't been seen" and "hasn't been at the Performance Center" since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Are we sure those are their real homes on Total Divas though? Maybe they just shot it at Vince's house like those DiBiase vignettes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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