Dave Meltzer stuff

[stomperspc]

I think the problem with the generation gap argument is that it assumes that wrestling is always evolving for the better and it ignores the fact that the worldwide pro wrestling audience is significantly smaller right now than it has historically been. Dave’s point on the Midnight Express is valid to an extent (Cornette would come off far better if he acknowledged that there are obvious similarities between the Bucks and MX). My counterargument would be that MX’s athletic spots were generally executed in a less “choreographed” manner (for lack of a better term), they got over in front of bigger and more varied audiences, and their comedy had a broader slapstick appeal rather than the ironic appeal of a lot of the Bucks comedy spots. Dave seems to be taking the stance that as long as a group of people like a certain style that there is no such thing as taking things too far. Not sure that I buy that. Logic dictates that at some point the old guys complaining about the young kids taking it too far will be right. At some point it goes too far. I am not saying the Young Bucks are that line but I wish Dave and others weren’t so dismissive of the idea that line exists. I think it is perfectly valid for some fans to view the Midnight Express’ innovation as generally being positive and viewing the Bucks’ stuff as a step too far. It is a matter of taste.

 

Likewise, the viewpoint that if the live crowd likes a spot or a match and there is no extra level of danger involved then the spot/match “worked” ignores the fact that something else could potentially have broader appeal. By its own historical standards, wrestling is not very popular now. ROH and the Bullet Club are still very much niche entities in a relatively small industry. It is good for the Bucks that they have their audience and have been able to grow that audience somewhat, but it is still a small, niche audience. It seems like a slippery slope. This is an extreme example but if a match gets over in front of 50 fans all with the same very specific tastes, does that mean the match worked and the wrestlers did the right thing even if a different type of presentation might have held broader appeal? Satisfying your core audience is better than not appealing to any audience but not sure the reaction of that audience should be the benchmark for what works or doesn’t work.

[zep81]

Someone tweeted Meltzer compared the Young Bucks to the Midnight Express and Jim Cornette saw it and replied...

 

Get the popcorn ready.

 

Got a link to the tweet pls?

[Edwin]

 

Someone tweeted Meltzer compared the Young Bucks to the Midnight Express and Jim Cornette saw it and replied...

 

Get the popcorn ready.

 

Got a link to the tweet pls?

 

https://twitter.com/DenimFritz605/status/942543986325106690

 

https://twitter.com/TheJimCornette/status/942596880034353152

 

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/942597401742733312

 

And then there's this exchange where Dave compares Okada vs. Omega to Flair vs. Steamboat and Jim responds:

 

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/942544739743576064

 

https://twitter.com/TheJimCornette/status/942597736838369281

[zep81]

Lol thx.

[Mad Dog]

Cornette really just needs to stick to nostalgia stuff. If anyone has proven they have no idea how to appeal to modern wrestling fans it's him.

[Mad Dog]

I think the problem with the generation gap argument is that it assumes that wrestling is always evolving for the better and it ignores the fact that the worldwide pro wrestling audience is significantly smaller right now than it has historically been. Daves point on the Midnight Express is valid to an extent (Cornette would come off far better if he acknowledged that there are obvious similarities between the Bucks and MX). My counterargument would be that MXs athletic spots were generally executed in a less choreographed manner (for lack of a better term), they got over in front of bigger and more varied audiences, and their comedy had a broader slapstick appeal rather than the ironic appeal of a lot of the Bucks comedy spots. Dave seems to be taking the stance that as long as a group of people like a certain style that there is no such thing as taking things too far. Not sure that I buy that. Logic dictates that at some point the old guys complaining about the young kids taking it too far will be right. At some point it goes too far. I am not saying the Young Bucks are that line but I wish Dave and others werent so dismissive of the idea that line exists. I think it is perfectly valid for some fans to view the Midnight Express innovation as generally being positive and viewing the Bucks stuff as a step too far. It is a matter of taste.

 

Likewise, the viewpoint that if the live crowd likes a spot or a match and there is no extra level of danger involved then the spot/match worked ignores the fact that something else could potentially have broader appeal. By its own historical standards, wrestling is not very popular now. ROH and the Bullet Club are still very much niche entities in a relatively small industry. It is good for the Bucks that they have their audience and have been able to grow that audience somewhat, but it is still a small, niche audience. It seems like a slippery slope. This is an extreme example but if a match gets over in front of 50 fans all with the same very specific tastes, does that mean the match worked and the wrestlers did the right thing even if a different type of presentation might have held broader appeal? Satisfying your core audience is better than not appealing to any audience but not sure the reaction of that audience should be the benchmark for what works or doesnt work.

I would personally feel ripped off if I paid to see the Young Bucks wrestle and they didn't wrestle a Young Bucks match.

[jushin muta liger]

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

[hammerva]

Well apparently someone told Dave about Youtube because all of his radio stuff was gone. That was inevitable

[Matt D]

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

 

This seems relatively benign, to be honest. If we went back and rewatched the match and what he's describing didn't happen, or if he's overstressing the crowd's reaction, that'd be different.

 

If anything, it almost helps Dave, because he's gone from the guy who "knows nothing because he's never been in a ring" to a guy who served in a director's/screenwriter consultant role on a PPV match.

[jushin muta liger]

 

 

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

This seems relatively benign, to be honest. If we went back and rewatched the match and what he's describing didn't happen, or if he's overstressing the crowd's reaction, that'd be different.

 

If anything, it almost helps Dave, because he's gone from the guy who "knows nothing because he's never been in a ring" to a guy who served in a director's/screenwriter consultant role on a PPV match.

On the other hand, his creditably is shot as a journalist. Now people will say that it is absurd to be a journalist in wrestling but he's making a living off of it.

[C.S.]

I don't think his credibility is shot. It's not like he gave the match five stars. Plus, this probably enhanced his knowledge as a journalist about the subject he was covering, which is never a bad thing.

[Matt D]

 

 

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

This seems relatively benign, to be honest. If we went back and rewatched the match and what he's describing didn't happen, or if he's overstressing the crowd's reaction, that'd be different.

 

If anything, it almost helps Dave, because he's gone from the guy who "knows nothing because he's never been in a ring" to a guy who served in a director's/screenwriter consultant role on a PPV match.

On the other hand, his creditably is shot as a journalist. Now people will say that it is absurd to be a journalist in wrestling but he's making a living off of it.

 

We already knew he had friends in the business over the years, that they were often his sources, that he arguably gave them better coverage, and that he even fielded consultation calls for Vince at one point or another. I said relatively and I mean it. The bar wasn't super high. I don't think this lowers it in the least.

[Coffey]

Cornette really just needs to stick to nostalgia stuff. If anyone has proven they have no idea how to appeal to modern wrestling fans it's him.

 

I'd rather listen to Cornette talk about that nostalgic stuff than watch the newest Young Bucks trend of things that Meltzer puts over. Which is what says a lot to me, personally. The continual diminishing of psychology, killing moves, making everything look fake/silly, doing shit just for a cheap pop, etc. Which isn't just a Young Bucks thing & has been going on for a long time. It's the same reason I hate Kevin Steen/Owens. But you're right, Cornette doesn't know what modern fans want either. His ROH run wasn't great. He's very old school - too old school I'd argue - but I don't think this is a case of one or the other. I think the best bet is the middle ground between the two of Cornette/Bucks.

 

The Young Bucks are too far in one direction & Jim Cornette is too far in the other. I think we need to meet in the middle somewhere.

 

Sometimes I feel like the Young Bucks blow things out of proportion - and maybe that's the entire point. That might be exactly what they're trying to do because it gets people talking about them & gets them more attention. They're a niche team in a niche industry. A rip-off Rockers in a rip-off nWo stable that sell t-shirts in a dated store. They're getting paid bank outside of WWE & more power to them, but some of the things they're doing or saying are lunacy. Saying they're going to go down as one of the greatest tag teams of all-time? C'mon, man. That's some LaVar Ball levels of delusional embellishment. But they're working it for all they can & it's hard to hate on them for that. Get that money.

[Wahoos Leg]

I personally prefer the NJPW incarnation of the Bucks to the ROH one

[Zoo Enthusiast]

I personally prefer the NJPW incarnation of the Bucks to the ROH one

Yeah they are pretty pointless in ROH. They mostly just do Being The Elite stuff in the matches lately (like with Flip Gordon).

[Eduardo]

 

 

 

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

This seems relatively benign, to be honest. If we went back and rewatched the match and what he's describing didn't happen, or if he's overstressing the crowd's reaction, that'd be different.

 

If anything, it almost helps Dave, because he's gone from the guy who "knows nothing because he's never been in a ring" to a guy who served in a director's/screenwriter consultant role on a PPV match.

On the other hand, his creditably is shot as a journalist. Now people will say that it is absurd to be a journalist in wrestling but he's making a living off of it.

 

We already knew he had friends in the business over the years, that they were often his sources, that he arguably gave them better coverage, and that he even fielded consultation calls for Vince at one point or another. I said relatively and I mean it. The bar wasn't super high. I don't think this lowers it in the least.

 

 

Dave has talked about this type of stuff all the time. He has talked, on several occasions, about giving advice and input to that worked PRIDE fight with Takada vs Coleman with the people involved in that.

[GSR]

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

 

Only you and that oddball Meltzer obsessive 'Les Moore' it would seem.

[Matt D]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Am I alone in thinking that this tweet from Dave was worse than anything else he said yesterday? https://twitter.com/prowrestling/status/942500420055789568

This seems relatively benign, to be honest. If we went back and rewatched the match and what he's describing didn't happen, or if he's overstressing the crowd's reaction, that'd be different.

 

If anything, it almost helps Dave, because he's gone from the guy who "knows nothing because he's never been in a ring" to a guy who served in a director's/screenwriter consultant role on a PPV match.

On the other hand, his creditably is shot as a journalist. Now people will say that it is absurd to be a journalist in wrestling but he's making a living off of it.

We already knew he had friends in the business over the years, that they were often his sources, that he arguably gave them better coverage, and that he even fielded consultation calls for Vince at one point or another. I said relatively and I mean it. The bar wasn't super high. I don't think this lowers it in the least.

Dave has talked about this type of stuff all the time. He has talked, on several occasions, about giving advice and input to that worked PRIDE fight with Takada vs Coleman with the people involved in that.

I ignore even the worked MMA coverage?

[Edwin]

Dave has talked about this type of stuff all the time. He has talked, on several occasions, about giving advice and input to that worked PRIDE fight with Takada vs Coleman with the people involved in that.

Huh? He was involved in that mess?

 

This is the first time I've heard that.

 

If I was him, I wouldn't even admit I had to do with that. That was atrocious. Takada was involved in some really bad worked PRIDE fights. The Kyle Sturgeon fixed fight was far worse however.

[Strummer]

Don't mean to pile on but a few weeks ago Dave says there are no plans for a Women's rumble match so of course they announce one tonight. 2017 has been a terrible year for him reporting wise

[Eduardo]

 

Dave has talked about this type of stuff all the time. He has talked, on several occasions, about giving advice and input to that worked PRIDE fight with Takada vs Coleman with the people involved in that.

Huh? He was involved in that mess?

 

This is the first time I've heard that.

 

If I was him, I wouldn't even admit I had to do with that. That was atrocious. Takada was involved in some really bad worked PRIDE fights. The Kyle Sturgeon fixed fight was far worse however.

 

 

He's talked about it on the audio before, and here is a quote, that I think is originally from Wrestling Classics:

 

"Coleman-Takada was a work. I can tell you that 100% because weeks before the fight I was involved in a discussion regarding how they would work the finish. There's a lot more to this story but people who don't understand Japan, wrestling and the fight business will never get this, but had Takada not been given some bought and paid for wins early on, Pride would have folded long before Sakuraba got hot and turned it into what it turned into. Business was not good those early years and Takada was the only guy over, and people were losing faith in him. He needed a big win at that moment. It's never been an issue in Japan because all they were drawing were pro wrestling fans until probably 2001 anyway, and they understood business is business."

[Bix]

 

 

 

 

Dave has talked about this type of stuff all the time. He has talked, on several occasions, about giving advice and input to that worked PRIDE fight with Takada vs Coleman with the people involved in that.

Huh? He was involved in that mess?

 

This is the first time I've heard that.

 

If I was him, I wouldn't even admit I had to do with that. That was atrocious. Takada was involved in some really bad worked PRIDE fights. The Kyle Sturgeon fixed fight was far worse however.

He's talked about it on the audio before, and here is a quote, that I think is originally from Wrestling Classics:

 

"Coleman-Takada was a work. I can tell you that 100% because weeks before the fight I was involved in a discussion regarding how they would work the finish. There's a lot more to this story but people who don't understand Japan, wrestling and the fight business will never get this, but had Takada not been given some bought and paid for wins early on, Pride would have folded long before Sakuraba got hot and turned it into what it turned into. Business was not good those early years and Takada was the only guy over, and people were losing faith in him. He needed a big win at that moment. It's never been an issue in Japan because all they were drawing were pro wrestling fans until probably 2001 anyway, and they understood business is business."

I think he said another time that they didn't use his suggested finish.

[Eduardo]

Yeah I think he may have said that on WOR.

[Edwin]

He's talked about it on the audio before, and here is a quote, that I think is originally from Wrestling Classics:

 

"Coleman-Takada was a work. I can tell you that 100% because weeks before the fight I was involved in a discussion regarding how they would work the finish. There's a lot more to this story but people who don't understand Japan, wrestling and the fight business will never get this, but had Takada not been given some bought and paid for wins early on, Pride would have folded long before Sakuraba got hot and turned it into what it turned into. Business was not good those early years and Takada was the only guy over, and people were losing faith in him. He needed a big win at that moment. It's never been an issue in Japan because all they were drawing were pro wrestling fans until probably 2001 anyway, and they understood business is business."

He is right though.

 

The only ones who don't understand this are the blind hardcore MMA fans who don't believe there's been a ton of fixed fights in the sport before to begin with.

 

The local Japanese fanbase is very different than the foreign fanbase. If you are an entertaining, charismatic fighter with a ton of personality, a flashy entrance and put on exciting fights, the fans will respect, cheer and support you.

 

That's why there's guys with a ton of losses and possibly losing records getting marquee fights.

IIRC he was also supposed to go over Tamura before he got KO'd.

[sek69]

It's really funny how the (US based) MMA hardcore fans hate any sullying of their precious sport with dirty pro wrestling, but it was largely pro wrestlers who started the shoot style groups that kicked off the popularity of MMA in Japan and led to everything today.