Dave Meltzer stuff

[Big Pete]

I understand where Meltzer is coming from. If you look at a guy like Billy Kidman, as soon as he hit the WWE and started putting on weight, he was no where near as impressive athletically and lost a lot of the appeal he garnered in WCW.

With that said, Matt Jackson is 33 years old. There's only so many bumps you can take before your body starts breaking down and you can no longer move as well as you once did. It seems like the Bucks are well aware of this and have slowly been making changes to their act. They're starting to pick their spots a lot better and sell a lot more to control the pacing of the match. The extra bulk is just part in parcel and I'm actually looking forward to the next chapter of their careers. They couldn't be 'Young' forever, eventually they had to grow up.

Keeping with the Kidman comparison, Matt is one year shy from the age Kidman called it quits.

[Mad Dog]

I bet they have a lot less miles on their bodies though. You figure Kidman spent 7ish years doing that shit almost nightly.

[Alucard]

I was always a big Kidman fan and wished he didn't retire so early. the Kidman/London team/feud in 2004 was awesome and one of my favorite examples of the original brand split allowing lots of time and focus on a smaller mid card feud.

[NintendoLogic]

I just noticed something interesting. For the longest time, the highest-rated Vader match on Cagematch was the Flair match at Starrcade. After Vader died, a few people on Twitter asked Dave to name his favorite Vader match and he said the Mutoh match from the 1991 G1. Lo and behold, that match shot to the top of the rankings. To be fair, I think it's more a case of people being more aware of the match since it wasn't taped for commercial release. Still, interesting.

[Cap]

Yeah, I'll be honest, I had no idea Dave said that about the match, but I rewatched a lot of Vader stuff that i remembers liking after his death and came away thinking that match was one of his 2-3 best. I don't rate or anything on cagematch anymore (did like a few matches a couple years ago), but I hadn't seen this since I started being much more active on the interwebs and rating matches etc etc. I have noticed a lot of buzz about the match after his death that I don't really remember from before, some of that probably started with Dave. I bet there were a lot of people looking up "best vader matches" and things like that and finding what Dave said and going into some nostalgia viewing with positive dispositions to that match.  It is fairly interesting.

[Mad Dog]

I think a lot of people are watching it for the first time. I don't remember it being easy to find back when I was first getting into New Japan in the early 2000s. I had a couple of friends surprised it was out there when I mentioned it right after his death. 

[Mrzfn]

I watched it for the first time after Vader passed and loved it, and I didn't have any idea Dave said anything about it. I did get the idea from cagematch though, so maybe I was indirectly influenced. Doesn't matter to me, an awesome match is an awesome match.

[Mad Dog]

I actually watched it because I heard the story about the seat cushions. I didn't think it was 5 stars but it was a great match. It's not my favorite Vader match but it might be my favorite Mutoh match. 

[ohtani's jacket]

On 6/22/2018 at 2:56 AM, NintendoLogic said:

I'm puzzled by Dave always referring to Takeshi as the Johnny Carson of Japan. I've never heard anyone else make that analogy, and the two don't seem all that similar to me.

Kitano is a famous TV host and comedian. It's not an entirely accurate analogy since Kitano is also a filmmaker, writer, and outspoken media pundit but the comparison that Dave is going for his late night TV host. 

[Fando]

Dave saying Brian Pillman told him Vader-Mutoh was the best match he'd ever seen probably added to the buzz too, but he did talk about it, and in the same way, earlier this year and I only saw a small thread on Wreddit about it, so more people were obviously paying attention this time after his death.

[SPS]

4 hours ago, Fando said:

Dave saying Brian Pillman told him Vader-Mutoh was the best match he'd ever seen probably added to the buzz too, but he did talk about it, and in the same way, earlier this year and I only saw a small thread on Wreddit about it, so more people were obviously paying attention this time after his death.

It was front page on squaredcircle the same week after on WOR Dave told the story of Pillman raving about it to him then just got reposted after Vader passed. Here was the original thread I saw from 4 months ago.

 

[Jmare007]

I'm surprised Dave talked about the zabuton/pillow throwing thing as a "never seen before" thing when it was a tradition in Sumo. I get not knowing about it when Vader/Mutoh first happened, but still going with it in 2018 is weird. Or at least that was my impression when I heard him in the WOR podcast.

[...TG]

1 hour ago, Jmare007 said:

I'm surprised Dave talked about the zabuton/pillow throwing thing as a "never seen before" thing when it was a tradition in Sumo. I get not knowing about it when Vader/Mutoh first happened, but still going with it in 2018 is weird. Or at least that was my impression when I heard him in the WOR podcast. 

I don't listen to WOR but in the Observer obit (and other times he's written about the match) I thought he meant "never seen before" in pro wrestling at Sumo Hall, not first time ever.

[WingedEagle]

Are any of the interviews with NJPW talent from this weekend worth listening to?

[William Bologna]

13 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

Are any of the interviews with NJPW talent from this weekend worth listening to?

The interview with Juice was fun. He just seems like a good dude. Jay White was dull. Cody was a pretty interesting overview of the business and WWE's writer problems. The Tanahashi one was a little painful since the guy doesn't speak English and Dave absolutely refuses to stop asking paragraph-long multi-part questions in those situations. He confirmed that Kenta Kobashi is a nice guy.

It was interesting that both Juice and Tanahashi expressed some reservations about the current style ("Too much moves"), and then Takahashi goes out and breaks his neck the next day.

[Wahoos Leg]

Dave's steadfast defense of NJPW in the wake of the Hiromu injury is both baffling and totally predictable.

[Migs]

4 hours ago, Wahoos Leg said:

Dave's steadfast defense of NJPW in the wake of the Hiromu injury is both baffling and totally predictable.

I do think most of the critics are being a little absurd in using this as a chance to prop up WWE for being "safe" when they have significant injuries as well from the accumulation of their schedule. Were Takahashi and Shibata's injuries dumb? Yeah, and Dave is saying as such. But it doesn't make WWE "better" or whatever it is the trolls are trying to say.

[Childs]

Dave's overall point, that it's ridiculous to pit one promotion against another in this discussion, is right on. Modern wrestling is dangerous. Fans of all promotions covet matches that push the limits. It's nothing new, and it isn't going to change anytime soon. 

I will be interested to see what he writes in this week's issue, specifically if there's any introspection from him about serving as a leading fan of the most physically taxing styles. 

[sek69]

1 hour ago, Migs said:

I do think most of the critics are being a little absurd in using this as a chance to prop up WWE for being "safe" when they have significant injuries as well from the accumulation of their schedule. Were Takahashi and Shibata's injuries dumb? Yeah, and Dave is saying as such. But it doesn't make WWE "better" or whatever it is the trolls are trying to say.

 

The weird thing about that is most WWE injuries of late have been shoulder injuries from the silly weightlifting regimen they  want everyone to do. I think Daniel Bryan was the last serious in ring WWE injury and it wouldn't be fair to blame that on the company.  The only other ones I can think of are "shit happens" type moments like Big Cass's knee blowing out.

[SomethingSavage]

Wait. Since when has the company pushed any specific weightlifting regimen on the performers? I always understood it to be a preferential deal. It's not like Vince and his yes men are following these guys to the gym up and down the road & making sure they get their silly tire flips or clean & presses in.

But yes. Cross fit is inherently stupid. And yes. It is the trendy thing everyone seems to be doing lately. Of course ego is almost always a factor, but a lot of these guys are probably doing these goofy lifts with poor form. And that - at even lighter volumes - is a recipe for injury.

[Jmare007]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

 

The weird thing about that is most WWE injuries of late have been shoulder injuries from the silly weightlifting regimen they  want everyone to do. I think Daniel Bryan was the last serious in ring WWE injury and it wouldn't be fair to blame that on the company.  The only other ones I can think of are "shit happens" type moments like Big Cass's knee blowing out.

 

Tyson Kidd

[KawadaSmile]

I'd also count Paige's career ending injury, too.

 

The problem is that in NJPW you are more likely to see people like Hiromu or Ibushi taking the worst possible bumps in basic moves. There was this one clip of CEO x NJPW where Ibushi took a powerbomb bump to the outside on his NECK, and gave Naito one of the most dangerous German Suplexes ever. That's not mentioning spots that are headdrops by design, or are direct hits to the head.

WWE's schedule of being over 300 days on the road surely is shitty for their performers' health, specially when paired with cross training and those overdone "shoulder to the ringpost" spots, but they at least made some effort of toning down the headdrops, piledrivers being the most obvious example. You barely even see a brainbuster in WWE.

You can say that the overall wrestling scene encourages that sort of daredevil style that wrestlers like Hiromu, Rollins, Dragon Lee, Omega and Ibushi have, and you'd actually be right. But I think that it's pretty obvious that shoulder injuries (or "busted lips", as Dave also mentioned) are not the same as broken necks or brain injuries.

With all that said, I doubt anything is going to change. If Dragon Lee stops doing that Phoenixplex it'll be a surprise to me.

[NintendoLogic]

I've argued this before, but I think there's a strong correlation between the lack of blood in wrestling and the increase in high-risk moves. Instead of fighting through blood loss, wrestlers show their toughness by overcoming getting dropped on their heads and necks. And street fights have to rely on weapon shots and stunt bumps to get over the brutality of the stipulation.

[sek69]

18 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

I've argued this before, but I think there's a strong correlation between the lack of blood in wrestling and the increase in high-risk moves. Instead of fighting through blood loss, wrestlers show their toughness by overcoming getting dropped on their heads and necks. And street fights have to rely on weapon shots and stunt bumps to get over the brutality of the stipulation.

 

I always felt it was an overcorrection from the 90s era of ECW and deathmatches that bordered on gore porn. Some of that stuff was so over the top it killed the impact of seeing blood in wrestling. It's something best when barely used, as seen when Jericho busted up Naito. 

[Victator]

On 7/4/2018 at 10:23 PM, NintendoLogic said:

For the longest time, the highest-rated Vader match on Cagematch was the Flair match at Starrcade.

That doesn't seem right. I do like that match, but I would not say it was his best match in 93.