Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[EricR]

Not sure how this will sound, but I'm not really sure where my opinions differ from the norm. I'm kind of in a bubble in the wrestling that I watch and write about, and I don't tend to read a lot of stuff that other people write about matches or specific wrestlers.

 

I recently found out most lucha fans this Comandante Pierroth is the absolute worst, which was surprising to me as he's been one of my favorites the last couple years. But Pierroth is a fairly under the radar guy to have an opinion on anyway, so that won't move much of a podcast needle.

 

So...I'm not actually sure where my biggest opinion differences lie.

[goc]

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

 

 

This feels weird coming from you since you seemed to shit on Tiger Mask as much as anyone in your reviews of his matches from the NJ 80s set.

 

[supersonic]

Many people say that Paul London's overinflated ego and lack of professionalism is why he never became a big name in WWE, and in fact only once performed on a SummerSlam PPV card and NEVER for a WrestleMania PPV card.

 

During his time in WWE, London was a victim of bad timing and signing way too early. Before he came into the company, he was the Shawn Michaels of the underground wrestling scene. He knew how to draw sympathy, his selling was elite, he could play subtle heel when necessary, he could pull off highlight reel spots, he could do it all from bell to bell. While London lacks mainstream-level mic skills and does deserve blame for his failure to navigate behind-the-scenes and win over anyone of importance to have his back, the fact is that someone with his skill set should've been this generation's Ricky Steamboat.

 

Had Paul London waited for CM Punk to break down the barriers in 2011, there's a damn good chance he would've come into the company with the same level of red carpet treatment afforded to Prince Devitt, Kevin Steen, and Shinsuke Nakamura. At the very least, he would've come into NXT at the same level of El Generico - a legend with an absolutely loaded underground legacy and body of work, coming in with a clear "pay your dues" journey. When London signed with WWE in 2003, he came in during a time when the company was too busy having its head up its own ass and masturbating over winning the Monday Night War, instead pushing generic scrubs as the future of the company, rather than indy sensations such as London. A decade later though, he would've come into a much healthier, open-minded work environment, and likely with someone behind the scenes who would've had his back as well. There is no doubt whatsoever that if London had come into WWE after the behind-the-scenes aftermath of Money in the Bank 2011 settled in, he would've been as highly sought as Will Ospreay and Ricochet have been in 2016.

 

I will always argue that Paul London is the biggest casualty of WWE's primitive hiring and pushing philosophies during the 2000s decade, despite him actually being there during that period and winning multiple championships. Those who roll their eyes at this assertion would be wise to set aside the time and watch his 2002-03 body of work in ROH, as well as his post-WWE work once he got motivated again. It isn't just London's loss that he never became a substantial star in WWE, but it's also the loss of WWE, the wrestling industry, and most importantly, the fans.

[GOTNW]

Not sure how this will sound, but I'm not really sure where my opinions differ from the norm. I'm kind of in a bubble in the wrestling that I watch and write about, and I don't tend to read a lot of stuff that other people write about matches or specific wrestlers.

 

I recently found out most lucha fans this Comandante Pierroth is the absolute worst, which was surprising to me as he's been one of my favorites the last couple years. But Pierroth is a fairly under the radar guy to have an opinion on anyway, so that won't move much of a podcast needle.

 

So...I'm not actually sure where my biggest opinion differences lie.

I have no idea why people dedicate so much energy towards hating a third string rudo in Rush brawls but I hope he main events the Aniversario show just to piss off everyone who thinks Volador Jr. is great.

[NotJayTabb]

Not sure how this will sound, but I'm not really sure where my opinions differ from the norm. I'm kind of in a bubble in the wrestling that I watch and write about, and I don't tend to read a lot of stuff that other people write about matches or specific wrestlers.

 

I recently found out most lucha fans this Comandante Pierroth is the absolute worst, which was surprising to me as he's been one of my favorites the last couple years. But Pierroth is a fairly under the radar guy to have an opinion on anyway, so that won't move much of a podcast needle.

 

So...I'm not actually sure where my biggest opinion differences lie.

I thought the "In Defence of Pierroth" piece on SC was great, mainly for puncturing the idea that people like "bad" wrestlers for valuable Internet Points

[Superstar Sleeze]

Guys round here don't even know the meaning of having a controversial view. Here are some of mine:

 

- Shinya Hashimoto is a two dimensional wrestler.

- Yatsu carried Choshu in their tag team.

- Dory Funk Jr's All Japan career was better than Masa Fuchi's.

- Rick Rude's 1992 in WCW wasn't actually that good.

- Ric Flair's WWF run in 91-93 is better than the entirety of Bret Hart's career before that point.

- Hiro Hase was a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

- 2 Cold Scorpio was basically a spot monkey.

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

- Bob Backlund was a selfish wrestler.

- Ole Anderson was a better promo than The Rock.

- Sean Mooney was awesome, and the best C-team announcer and interview guy in wrestling history.

- Tully Blanchard was a bad promo who stumbled over his words a lot.

- Tully Blanchard worked too weak to the detriment of his matches.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rock n Roll Express.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rockers.

- The early 90s in general were much better than the late 90s in both WCW and WWF.

- The Attitude Era kinda sucked.

- Everything DX ever did was embarrassing even at the time.

- HHH's entrances from the past two Wrestlemanias are high art and belong in a gallery.

- Wrestling TV was better when it was all jobber matches interspersed with interviews and angles.

- Wrestling in the US hasn't been good since 1994.

- Vince McMahon was a better lead commentator than Jim Ross, Gorilla Monsoon, Gordon Solie, and Tony Schiavone.

- Lucha mostly sucks

 

That'll do.

PARV IS BACK, BABY! I feel like singing My Boyfriend Is Back!

 

Don't know what you mean by Hashimoto being two-dimensional, but I am pretty sure I disagree.

Don't know that is a major blind spot for me.

That seems like a slam dunk to me. Junior was in a high profile spot from 73-83. Am I underrating Fuchi's 80s?

We talked about this. It is overrated, but it an upper tier run in terms of being heat magnet. It is not Flair '89, but it is in Top 50 or so calendar year runs.

Hmmmmmmmm...it is close

Have not seen enough Hase.

I disagree. You will watch '93 WCW and realize you are wrong. Benoit match and tags with Bagwell against Blonds.

I like Tiger Mask in Original UWF and the one Dk match I watched was pretty good. I can get behind this.

I don't think this is against the grain. You are focusing on the wrong thing in this case though.

They are both great in different ways.

Lol @ Mooney.

Tully is pretty bitchin' at promos.

I totally agree with this! Don't really care for most Tully matches.

It is close.

LIEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I prefer the early 90s also except for 97. 97 is so so good.

I rewatched '98 WWF from March through July and it is quite entertaining. Really good continuity. Disagree! '99 does probably suck.

DX '97 maybe my favorite in wrestling ever period. It is so short, but that may be the best heel run ever.

I love bombast, pomp & circumstance, so yes I dig HHH's entrances and his heavy metal iconography

Jabroni matches, promos AND ANGLES is what TV should be about.

Bullshit. 2013 was incredible.

I like VinnyMac, but still will take Tony & JR. I abhor Gorilla. He is an asshole.

Havent watched much, but yeah American wrestling and puroresu >>> Lucha

[Al]

The invasion was as good as it was going to get.

 

The law of diminishing returns indicated stacking the card wouldn't draw the monster numbers people expect. The high price tag of the big name talent would make bringing in a lot of them at once unprofitable. Politics were inevitable, there were only so many wrestlers wwe could employ and some were going to lose their jobs. And if you put the invasion on full blast, your business will fall off afterwards when you can't follow it up with anything half as big.

 

WWE's strategy of bringing talent in gradually over two years was disappointing to fans, but much better for their bottom line long term.

[Grimmas]

The invasion was as good as it was going to get.

 

The law of diminishing returns indicated stacking the card wouldn't draw the monster numbers people expect. The high price tag of the big name talent would make bringing in a lot of them at once unprofitable. Politics were inevitable, there were only so many wrestlers wwe could employ and some were going to lose their jobs. And if you put the invasion on full blast, your business will fall off afterwards when you can't follow it up with anything half as big.

 

WWE's strategy of bringing talent in gradually over two years was disappointing to fans, but much better for their bottom line long term.

No.

 

The nWo was a great invasion angle and they used Hall & Nash, which would be equivalent to DDP & Booker T. They had the talent, just they didn't do it right at all.

[funkdoc]

wrestling needs to cater *more* heavily to internet nerds since it has itself become another nerd fandom in a sea of them. i will always point to making Tensai a heel as one of the most out-of-touch ideas in the modern era - "westerner obsessed with Japan" sums up at least half of the people who go to RAWs & PPVs, and even a fair portion of the wrestlers themselves. granted, house shows are a different story, but i'm not sure how big their piece of the pie is these days.

 

rather than going for universal faces & heels, wrestling could generate more buzz today by coming up with angles that divide the crowd. in the era of social media there's debate over *everything*, and that debate is what gets people talking. it's not like this is without precedent either - think of the '97 Hart Foundation and how that laid the groundwork for the WWF's comeback.

 

one that runs hugely counter to this board in particular: i have long been convinced that wrestling has needed to take itself less seriously. it's largely been stuck in this weird middle ground for a while now, and that hasn't helped. countless people around my age or younger live on irony, and rarely get emotionally invested in wins or losses for real sports (much less a fake one). The Final Deletion should be the blueprint for wrestling in the future, but you have to sustain that level long-term which TNA won't do.

 

JvK's thoughts on OG Tiger Mask are almost exactly my thoughts on joshi. those promotions had a bunch of institutional hurdles that nobody ever talks about, such as the near-complete lack of gaijin talent. i absolutely think it makes their achievements much more impressive.

 

finally: the Irish whip & 99% of worked punches do more to expose the business than any Matrix flip sequences or blown spots. i have personal experience here, showing wrestling to non-fans and getting the "you still watch this shit?" response the moment they saw an Irish whip.

[Death From Above]

American Indie Wrestling tends to be vastly overrated simply for being American, which is funny because it's the exact same I Am Part Of A Very Special Club syndrome Japanese and Lucha fans have been accused of openly for 25 years.

 

It started with Memphis but now at this point it's just "any random show south of New York state".

[Death From Above]

Glacier, Wrath and Mortis is what brought me into watching WCW, not the nWo. I thought the whole "Blood Runs Cold" thing was freaking awesome and is a neat way to introduce a whole new division to a company. If they kept it strong long enough, a Glacier vs Goldberg match would had been HUGE!

 

Glacier's ring entrance was fucking great. WCW's unwillingness to let silliness win the day there was kind of a shame.

[BigBadMick]

 

Guys round here don't even know the meaning of having a controversial view. Here are some of mine:

 

- Shinya Hashimoto is a two dimensional wrestler.

- Yatsu carried Choshu in their tag team.

- Dory Funk Jr's All Japan career was better than Masa Fuchi's.

- Rick Rude's 1992 in WCW wasn't actually that good.

- Ric Flair's WWF run in 91-93 is better than the entirety of Bret Hart's career before that point.

- Hiro Hase was a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

- 2 Cold Scorpio was basically a spot monkey.

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

- Bob Backlund was a selfish wrestler.

- Ole Anderson was a better promo than The Rock.

- Sean Mooney was awesome, and the best C-team announcer and interview guy in wrestling history.

- Tully Blanchard was a bad promo who stumbled over his words a lot.

- Tully Blanchard worked too weak to the detriment of his matches.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rock n Roll Express.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rockers.

- The early 90s in general were much better than the late 90s in both WCW and WWF.

- The Attitude Era kinda sucked.

- Everything DX ever did was embarrassing even at the time.

- HHH's entrances from the past two Wrestlemanias are high art and belong in a gallery.

- Wrestling TV was better when it was all jobber matches interspersed with interviews and angles.

- Wrestling in the US hasn't been good since 1994.

- Vince McMahon was a better lead commentator than Jim Ross, Gorilla Monsoon, Gordon Solie, and Tony Schiavone.

- Lucha mostly sucks

 

That'll do.

PARV IS BACK, BABY! I feel like singing My Boyfriend Is Back!

 

Don't know what you mean by Hashimoto being two-dimensional, but I am pretty sure I disagree.

Don't know that is a major blind spot for me.

That seems like a slam dunk to me. Junior was in a high profile spot from 73-83. Am I underrating Fuchi's 80s?

We talked about this. It is overrated, but it an upper tier run in terms of being heat magnet. It is not Flair '89, but it is in Top 50 or so calendar year runs.

Hmmmmmmmm...it is close

Have not seen enough Hase.

I disagree. You will watch '93 WCW and realize you are wrong. Benoit match and tags with Bagwell against Blonds.

I like Tiger Mask in Original UWF and the one Dk match I watched was pretty good. I can get behind this.

I don't think this is against the grain. You are focusing on the wrong thing in this case though.

They are both great in different ways.

Lol @ Mooney.

Tully is pretty bitchin' at promos.

I totally agree with this! Don't really care for most Tully matches.

It is close.

LIEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I prefer the early 90s also except for 97. 97 is so so good.

I rewatched '98 WWF from March through July and it is quite entertaining. Really good continuity. Disagree! '99 does probably suck.

DX '97 maybe my favorite in wrestling ever period. It is so short, but that may be the best heel run ever.

I love bombast, pomp & circumstance, so yes I dig HHH's entrances and his heavy metal iconography

Jabroni matches, promos AND ANGLES is what TV should be about.

Bullshit. 2013 was incredible.

I like VinnyMac, but still will take Tony & JR. I abhor Gorilla. He is an asshole.

Havent watched much, but yeah American wrestling and puroresu >>> Lucha

 

Parv (if you're still with us), I'd love to get an understanding of what you watched and when before starting WTBBP.

 

You have some very peculiar ideas sometimes......

[El-P]

American Indie Wrestling tends to be vastly overrated simply for being American, which is funny because it's the exact same I Am Part Of A Very Special Club syndrome Japanese and Lucha fans have been accused of openly for 25 years.

 

It started with Memphis but now at this point it's just "any random show south of New York state".

 

Couldn't agree more.

[BrianB]

Guys round here don't even know the meaning of having a controversial view. Here are some of mine:

 

- Shinya Hashimoto is a two dimensional wrestler.

- Yatsu carried Choshu in their tag team.

- Dory Funk Jr's All Japan career was better than Masa Fuchi's.

- Rick Rude's 1992 in WCW wasn't actually that good.

- Ric Flair's WWF run in 91-93 is better than the entirety of Bret Hart's career before that point.

- Hiro Hase was a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

- 2 Cold Scorpio was basically a spot monkey.

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

- Bob Backlund was a selfish wrestler.

- Ole Anderson was a better promo than The Rock.

- Sean Mooney was awesome, and the best C-team announcer and interview guy in wrestling history.

- Tully Blanchard was a bad promo who stumbled over his words a lot.

- Tully Blanchard worked too weak to the detriment of his matches.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rock n Roll Express.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rockers.

- The early 90s in general were much better than the late 90s in both WCW and WWF.

- The Attitude Era kinda sucked.

- Everything DX ever did was embarrassing even at the time.

- HHH's entrances from the past two Wrestlemanias are high art and belong in a gallery.

- Wrestling TV was better when it was all jobber matches interspersed with interviews and angles.

- Wrestling in the US hasn't been good since 1994.

- Vince McMahon was a better lead commentator than Jim Ross, Gorilla Monsoon, Gordon Solie, and Tony Schiavone.

- Lucha mostly sucks

 

That'll do.

 

Those definitely qualify as against the grain. I think you're holding how Rude shaved the stache at the end of 1992 pretty heavily against him. The last 3-4 months of Rude's WCW 1992 weren't strong though.

[supremebve]

 

Guys round here don't even know the meaning of having a controversial view. Here are some of mine:

 

- Shinya Hashimoto is a two dimensional wrestler.

- Yatsu carried Choshu in their tag team.

- Dory Funk Jr's All Japan career was better than Masa Fuchi's.

- Rick Rude's 1992 in WCW wasn't actually that good.

- Ric Flair's WWF run in 91-93 is better than the entirety of Bret Hart's career before that point.

- Hiro Hase was a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

- 2 Cold Scorpio was basically a spot monkey.

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

- Bob Backlund was a selfish wrestler.

- Ole Anderson was a better promo than The Rock.

- Sean Mooney was awesome, and the best C-team announcer and interview guy in wrestling history.

- Tully Blanchard was a bad promo who stumbled over his words a lot.

- Tully Blanchard worked too weak to the detriment of his matches.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rock n Roll Express.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rockers.

- The early 90s in general were much better than the late 90s in both WCW and WWF.

- The Attitude Era kinda sucked.

- Everything DX ever did was embarrassing even at the time.

- HHH's entrances from the past two Wrestlemanias are high art and belong in a gallery.

- Wrestling TV was better when it was all jobber matches interspersed with interviews and angles.

- Wrestling in the US hasn't been good since 1994.

- Vince McMahon was a better lead commentator than Jim Ross, Gorilla Monsoon, Gordon Solie, and Tony Schiavone.

- Lucha mostly sucks

 

That'll do.

 

Those definitely qualify as against the grain. I think you're holding how Rude shaved the stache at the end of 1992 pretty heavily against him. The last 3-4 months of Rude's WCW 1992 weren't strong though.

 

I think Rude's highs in 92 are very high, but not to the level where I think it is an all-time year in pro wrestling. To really go against the internet grain, I'd rather watch all of HHH's 2000 than all of Rude's 1992. I'd rather watch Rude's best matches from 92, but not all of it.

[sek69]

Am I alone in not liking Mauro Ranallo? I mean, sure, he's more lively than the sea of WWE Announcerbot clones but his run on SD has not been impressive IMO. He seems better on the CWC shows so maybe it's just him being overproduced but he comes off as forced and/or a guy who did a ton of redbull and espresso shots before the show.

[JOHNSTEFFY1969]

Am I the only one who thinks Bobby Lashly's Spear is absolutely the worst? I understand he's a legit mma guy, but his work spear looks incredibly awkward. His punches are not very good either. I watched his match last week ( yes I was the one watching-later on demand) with dj zema(sp). He looked great in that, because he didnt do the spear, and used forearms instead of those side fist punches.

just sayin

 

[superkix]

Am I the only one who thinks Bobby Lashly's Spear is absolutely the worst? I understand he's a legit mma guy, but his work spear looks incredibly awkward. His punches are not very good either. I watched his match last week ( yes I was the one watching-later on demand) with dj zema(sp). He looked great in that, because he didnt do the spear, and used forearms instead of those side fist punches.

just sayin

 

90% of spears in wrestling look bad.

[jdw]

Tony Schiavone at his best >> Jim Ross in general.

 

They both are overrated and sucky, even at their best.

[jdw]

Another one:

 

I like David Crockett as an announcer.

 

Yeah... I like Crockett as well. Wouldn't call him great, but he was underrated.

[Loss]

I don't really have any controversial opinions, which sort of comes with the territory when you are almost always right.

[The Thread Killer]

Am I alone in not liking Mauro Ranallo? I mean, sure, he's more lively than the sea of WWE Announcerbot clones but his run on SD has not been impressive IMO. He seems better on the CWC shows so maybe it's just him being overproduced but he comes off as forced and/or a guy who did a ton of redbull and espresso shots before the show.

 

It seems like wherever I go as a fan, Mauro Ranallo haunts me. He was the play-by-play guy when Stampede briefly had their comeback on A Channel here in Canada. Then he shows up during the dying days of PRIDE. Then he's on The Fight Network calling all sorts of stuff, including Japanese wrestling, so if I want to see Puro with English commentary, it's got to be him. Now I start watching WWE for the first time in 15 years, and there he is on Smackdown.

 

My issue with him has always been that he comes across like he's trying too hard and is trying to beat you over the head with how smart he is, or more accurately, how smart he thinks he is. He has to use the long form name for every move executed, and give you a bio of who invented the move, or perfected it. Then he has to try and be clever and throw out his wordplay and wannabe Howard Cosell descriptions of the action. In some ways, he reminds me of all of the things I hated about Matt Striker. I can appreciate it when the commentator knows a lot, but when it seems like they're trying to beat you over the head with it, it grates on the nerves.

 

He's better in WWE than Michael Cole or a guy like Byron Saxton would be, but that is damning him with faint praise. For my money, Tom Phillips and Corey Graves are the best broadcast team in WWE, hands down.

[C.S.]

wrestling needs to cater *more* heavily to internet nerds since it has itself become another nerd fandom in a sea of them. i will always point to making Tensai a heel as one of the most out-of-touch ideas in the modern era - "westerner obsessed with Japan" sums up at least half of the people who go to RAWs & PPVs, and even a fair portion of the wrestlers themselves. granted, house shows are a different story, but i'm not sure how big their piece of the pie is these days.

 

Truthfully, the Tensai gimmick was tone deaf and dead on arrival no matter what his alignment was.

[Zenjo]

Bobby Eaton is crazily overrated in these parts. Somewhere along the line he seems to have become the poster boy for 'Smarks appreciating the underappreciated' and it's gotten totally out of control. Someone who was never a star, never a draw and not an influence being voted the 28th greatest wrestler in history is lunacy. I wouldn't even call him a worker who stands out from the crowd.

 

The 6 man tag format is fundamentally inferior to both singles and tags. I'm not sure if this is against the grain or just something people don't think about much. You can certainly have plenty of G-VG 6 mans but I find them to have a low ceiling. The additional participants are restrictive towards the psychology and storytelling, because you can't focus on everyone in the match. There isn't time. Ideal if you want to hide weaknesses, but not conductive to stronger wrestlers all reaching their peak level. 6 mans tend to have less variation in structure with the emphasis usually being on workrate and keeping the action flowing.

[sek69]

The Midnights were a pretty big draw everywhere they went in the 80s.